Is Mooney suitable for learning how to fly?

[Guest]

7 hours ago, carl said:

T & G , you just push the throttle and fly . nothing else has to be done. 

 

Full flaps , full nose up trim . for a smooth landing . T&G push the throttle in and fly the plane. 

No flaps , t & G , Push the throttle and fly the plane.

Sure you can reset flaps and trim , but really that is just for comfort .On a go around  you push the throttle in and fly the plane, in what ever configuration it is in. 

There must be something wrong with my plane then, because in the configurations you list application of take off power(400 HP) results in a rather serious pitch up of the nose.  I'm not brave enough to see just how far it will go, but in cold temps and solo in a normal climb at Vy results in 3000'/min and the Aspen showing red nose down arrows.  Clearly it's not happy.

Its probably wrong but on an overshoot from full flap full nose up trim approach I apply enough power to arrest the sink then clean up the plane, then apply climb power.

Clarence

[Shadrach]

31 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

There must be something wrong with my plane then, because in the configurations you list application of take off power(400 HP) results in a rather serious pitch up of the nose.  I'm not brave enough to see just how far it will go, but in cold temps and solo in a normal climb at Vy results in 3000'/min and the Aspen showing red nose down arrows.  Clearly it's not happy.

Its probably wrong but on an overshoot from full flap full nose up trim approach I apply enough power to arrest the sink then clean up the plane, then apply climb power.

Clarence

Clarence, I was just out 2 days ago experimenting with this. I was doing "mains only", full flap T&Gs, trim was full nose up for every touchdown. The plane comes off the runway easily and while it wants to nose up I did not find it a difficult situation to manage.

[anthonydesmet]

Plenty of great advice here in regards to learning in a rental which I agree with. Since this is an opinion piece let me add a couple more:

- don't put off going to the airport this week and start towards your PPL. I see so many of my friends talk and weigh options that they go another 6 months to a couple years before they get started. Just "go". Once you have your PPL and mooney then find a mooney CFI who can teach you the finer points of flying a mooney. You will enjoy it so much more.

- while your learning and once you get to around your solo time start looking for your mooney. Decide on your mission and then decide if you want a C, F, J, K and if you can afford it...Bravo, Ovation, etc. I think you will be much happier and better on your pocket book if you buy what your mission requires first and not with a future upgrade in your mind for later. Plus, it may take a awhile to find the right plane and then going through the pre-buy and loan process can take a long time. It took me 2+ years to close on my plane after walking away from three pre-buys. By the time you find yours I bet you will have had your PPL in hand for a good bit. Plus the more hours you tack on before your mooney will help your insurance costs and approval.

I live in the Norfolk area also and I am based out of CPK if you want to chat mooney's later.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[carl]

Exactly. 

The nose will pitch up , so you push the yoke in. I know Clarence is messing with me, cause you do this.Clarence flies the plane.

The tough and go is just that , touch the wheels and then in the air again , once flying ,then you should trim, and then flaps milked in as speed develops.

People are wanting to land and reconfigure the plane for take off on the roll and then take off . that is a gear up waiting to happen.  

 

I find full throttle and full flaps while keeping the nose on the horizon ( not a climb out pitch up) will accelerate nicely while giving that straight up elevator vertical ride. This is also a full bounce recovery.

everyone should be able to do this with enjoyment . 

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, carl said:

Exactly. 

The nose will pitch up , so you push the yoke in. I know Clarence is messing with me, cause you do this.Clarence flies the plane.

The tough and go is just that , touch the wheels and then in the air again , once flying ,then you should trim, and then flaps milked in as speed develops.

People are wanting to land and reconfigure the plane for take off on the roll and then take off . that is a gear up waiting to happen.  

 

I find full throttle and full flaps while keeping the nose on the horizon ( not a climb out pitch up) will accelerate nicely while giving that straight up elevator vertical ride. This is also a full bounce recovery.

everyone should be able to do this with enjoyment . 

A good speed control exercise is doing T&Gs without letting the letting the nose wheel touch.

 

[Hank]

52 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

A good speed control exercise is doing T&Gs without letting the letting the nose wheel touch.

 

Them're fun! Wheelies . . .  

[PTK]

Someone please enlighten me:

What is the value of the, overused, t&g to an inexperienced student trying to master aircraft control in the most critical phases of landing/takeoff? 

(Hint: Save your breath and don't tell me it teaches proper speed control, landing technique or go arounds! Last time I checked my Mooney has flaps!)

[Hank]

6 minutes ago, PTK said:

What is the value of t&g's? Please someone enlighten me!

(Hint: Save your breath and don't tell me it teaches the student proper speed control, landing technique or go arounds! Last time I checked my Mooney has flaps!)

They really helped my CFII and I shoot multiple approaches, at one airport and at multiple airports. At controlled fields, it was easier to fit us in, "cleared for the option." Some were misses, some were touches, we only did full stop when we planned to get out of the plane. They were also what the DPE requested in my checkride:  ILS with touch and go, shoot the miss to the VOR; then the VOR approach, which was called a miss at DA; then we headed out and did unusual attitudes enroute to the next approach, GPS with circle to land at the uncontrolled field where he did the paperwork and gave me my temporary cert.

Is there value in touch and go? Sure. Are they so,etching that everyone must do? No. As the PIC, it's your choice to opt out.

And Peter, my plane has flaps, too, and I use them in every landing. Like my Owners Manual says, "FLAPS--as required" on final approach.

[PTK]

In my view a t&g is nothing more than a time saver. It does not teach a proper go around or landing or takeoff. It's a landing immediately followed by a takeoff.

IMO rushing through configuration changes to save time is not or should not be a primary student's priority. And that attitude should not be validated by the instructor having them do t&g's.

 

[Shadrach]

27 minutes ago, PTK said:

Someone please enlighten me:

What is the value of the, overused, t&g to an inexperienced student trying to master aircraft control in the most critical phases of landing/takeoff? 

(Hint: Save your breath and don't tell me it teaches proper speed control, landing technique or go arounds! Last time I checked my Mooney has flaps!)

Interesting post. You ask a question and then tell people to save their breath in terms of an answer... 

[Hank]

22 minutes ago, PTK said:

In my view a t&g is nothing more than a time saver. It does not teach a proper go around or landing or takeoff. It's a landing immediately followed by a takeoff.

IMO rushing through configuration changes to save time is not or should not be a primary student's priority. And that attitude should not be validated by the instructor having them do t&g's.

 

It IS a timesaver. It ALSO reinforces how to land, as all wheels are rolling on the runway, properly aligned, and you'd better have proper crosswind correction in on final and through the flare to touchdown. TnG does not "teach" how to takeoff or land, you already know how to do that.

for some students, it is a money saver, allowing the logging of XC time towards the Instrument rating. That wasn't a problem for me, I had more than enough XC time when I started training. But it is very satisfying, after flying an approach with foggles, correcting for wind, to remove the , see the (sometimes snowy) (unfamiliar) runway ahead where it belongs, and touch down. Then it's up and around again for another, different approach. It's a great timesaver when you daisy chain several airports together, either as an instrument student, recurrent practice, flight review or even IPC. It's one more thing to mix in:  ILS, VOR, GPS, miss at DA, low miss, touch and go, full stop.

[rbridges]

23 hours ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

I had one costly mistake in my Mooney.  An instructor was on board.  They are not infallible.  My insurance paid not hers.  

An audible gear alert can save a lot of time and money...

Touch and Go's with a Loooooong runway are a non-event.  Nice to have another competent pilot type thinking flaps and trim.  Once you are experienced in the airframe are they really necessary?

Did your insurance go up?  Does the claim go against you?  I thought the cfi would have to take responsibility. 

[MyNameIsNobody]

23 minutes ago, rbridges said:

Did your insurance go up?  Does the claim go against you?  I thought the cfi would have to take responsibility. 

Yes.  Ancient history now.  Took on a newbie co-owner several years ago.  Went up again, but divided by two was lower net.  Now  premium is where it should be.  The CFI had same carrier.  Can't/don't subrogate against themselves...We both did a check ride and were blessed as competent.  My learning post GU was IT WILL happen when you are distracted/fatigued/out of the ordinary. I got the (in your headset) gear-alert.  The alert likely saved a J-Bar GU as co-owner and I were improperly checking gear locked by pulling toward us vs. proper pulling down on collar to ensure locked down.  A couple warnings in head-set for both of us.  I land a lot in Class C towered airspace.  Many times tower is "Keep your speed up"...Impossible to lower gear until closer to field. Nice to have checklist/multiple touching of light and pulling of J-Bar in addition to nanny to prevent a those that have scenario.

[bonal]

The only reason I can think of to do a touch and go is as a time saver when training I can think of no aspect of flight when one would need to land and then take off in the same flight as opposed to a roll out to full stop. Now correct me if I'm wrong Don but don't you instruct in recovery of bounced landings something that can and does happen. When I was training for my PPL I did lots of T&G's in my 150 as a time saver and they were non events because that what they are. If you want to really learn something relevant in your Mooney practice bounce and goes because that is something that you might have to do for real and could really bite hard if it's something your not prepared for. 

[HC]

Thank you so much, everyone, for such valuable information and thoughtful advice. What a nice community!!!

I vividly recall how overwhelming it was to just keep level and straight in my first 5 hours of flying.  Now, approaching 20 hours, I am struggling with pilotage and radio communications as well as being ahead of plane.  Further, how disappointing it is to see irregular shapes of my pattern works and bouncings on the runways in landing C172!

Getting a PPL in a rental plane and then transitioning to Mooney sounds like a very reasonable approach.

Having said that, I must start now searching for a plane that suits my mission, considering how long acquisition process would take.  I cannot afford to go to the dealer and pay cash for whatever new model available.  May I ask your opinion what type of Mooney should I start to looking for, C, E, J or K ? I don't want to extend myself further than current average asking price of K.  

I know that without specifying mission, it is tough to answer. I cannot fully figure it out my mission, either: ocasional flights for business in the east coast, mostly mid-atlantic; regular weekend flights for fun; maybe visiting kids if they go to college far away; and so on. Well, most usage in the imminent future would be my training for IFR, commercial, ...

I really appreciate for your experienced and thoughtful advice in advance.

P.S. FYI, my wish list No. 1 is turbo-charged K model, of course, but that's just based on what I have read in the internet and other magazines that sounded cool. So I want reality check.

 

[donkaye]

2 hours ago, bonal said:

Now correct me if I'm wrong Don but don't you instruct in recovery of bounced landings something that can and does happen.

The Mooney PPP doesn't approve of touch and go landings.  In the beginning when learning I think full stop landings are best.  The airplane tends to get ahead of a student with touch and goes--too much to do, especially after a poor landing in the first place.  A touch and go doesn't really allow a person to get the feel of a short field landing, and I always assume a short field landing.

Regarding go arounds, the mantra at Flight Safety has been: Power up, pitch up, on positive rate of climb, gear up, then flaps up--although most Mooney POHs don't agree.  They say in short, Power up, Flaps up, Trim , Gear up.  My experience says, Power up to full power simultaneously adding right rudder to keep the nose straight, Gear up first while simultaneously trimming down, then flaps to approach flaps, Vx, continue to trim down, as you go to Vy.  The drag from the Gear and the drag from full flaps are very similar.  Putting the gear up first gives almost no pitch change and gives the pilot time to trim down before the flaps go up.  Flaps do have a great effect on pitch.  Using my suggested method means there is no radical pitch change when the flaps are retracted.

[donkaye]

2 hours ago, HC said:

I vividly recall how overwhelming it was to just keep level and straight in my first 5 hours of flying.  Now, approaching 20 hours, I am struggling with pilotage and radio communications as well as being ahead of plane.  Further, how disappointing it is to see irregular shapes of my pattern works and bouncings on the runways in landing C172!

 

In my opinion the difficulty most new students have is thinking that they have to fly the airplane all the time.  Here's a thought--why not let the airplane fly the airplane?  That means that trimming the airplane is of utmost importance.  A trimmed airplane means the pilot has more time to get ahead of the airplane rather than fighting it for control.  It also means that a light touch rather than being heavy handed will allow for much smoother maneuvering and a much happier flight instructor, and soon, much happier passengers.

[bonal]

One of the first things my instructor taught me when I was struggling to keep straight and level was that my airplane knew how to fly a hell of a lot better than I did. Learning the proper use of trim makes everything else much easier.

[HC]

What an enlightenment!   Let the airplane fly itself.

I will keep that in mind and apply it in the next week's flight.  Trimming plays an important role, to which I did not much attention, because it's said "trim if necessary".

Thank you so much. 

[bonal]

HC yes the airplane can fly itself but you must alway fly the airplane. Trim properly used can reduce your work load. Don't stress when things are going a little rough. Learning to fly is the coolest thing one can do.

[carusoam]

My FAA check airman(?) demonstrated hands-free steep turns in the C152 I was testing in.  The old shabby plane would hold perfect altitude while turning in a steep bank for 360°.

He knew how to set the plane's controls to get what he wanted, and teach while administering a test.

 

Question for DK: On the go-around, when the plane is low and slow, gear and flaps are down... Can you give some thoughts on applying full power?

I have 310hp to select from. 200hp would be enough to build speed, reset trim and raise the gear.  Would you recommend a rate to put in all 310 hp?

pushing the throttle all in quickly comes with a lot of torque.

Thanks in advance for your answer,

-a-

[donkaye]

20 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Question for DK: On the go-around, when the plane is low and slow, gear and flaps are down... Can you give some thoughts on applying full power?

I have 310hp to select from. 200hp would be enough to build speed, reset trim and raise the gear.  Would you recommend a rate to put in all 310 hp?

pushing the throttle all in quickly comes with a lot of torque.

Thanks in advance for your answer,

-a-

I've just finished flying an Ovation 3 ¾ of the way across the country, so I have a good feel for 310 HP.  Flying turbocharged airplanes one never jams the throttle full in, but rather advances it smoothly.  This goes for all airplanes including those with large horsepower.  When low and slow it is important to stay in ground effect until a few knots below Vx.  Induced drag is reduced 48% while in ground effect (you must remain within a 10% wingspan from the ground to get this benefit)!  Add full power smoothly while simultaneously adding enough right  rudder to compensate for the added torque, P factor, and slipstream effect.  Start trimming down.  The plane will barely want to nose up.  At 50 feet raise the gear.  The pitch attitude will not change.  Start raising the flaps and the pitch attitude will change, but is easily managed since you had been trimming down in preparation for doing just that.  At Vy raise the balance of the flaps and you're done.

[anthonydesmet]

Thank you so much, everyone, for such valuable information and thoughtful advice. What a nice community!!!

I vividly recall how overwhelming it was to just keep level and straight in my first 5 hours of flying.  Now, approaching 20 hours, I am struggling with pilotage and radio communications as well as being ahead of plane.  Further, how disappointing it is to see irregular shapes of my pattern works and bouncings on the runways in landing C172!

Getting a PPL in a rental plane and then transitioning to Mooney sounds like a very reasonable approach.

Having said that, I must start now searching for a plane that suits my mission, considering how long acquisition process would take.  I cannot afford to go to the dealer and pay cash for whatever new model available.  May I ask your opinion what type of Mooney should I start to looking for, C, E, J or K ? I don't want to extend myself further than current average asking price of K.  

I know that without specifying mission, it is tough to answer. I cannot fully figure it out my mission, either: ocasional flights for business in the east coast, mostly mid-atlantic; regular weekend flights for fun; maybe visiting kids if they go to college far away; and so on. Well, most usage in the imminent future would be my training for IFR, commercial, ...

I really appreciate for your experienced and thoughtful advice in advance.

P.S. FYI, my wish list No. 1 is turbo-charged K model, of course, but that's just based on what I have read in the internet and other magazines that sounded cool. So I want reality check.

 

HC,

Yea, that's a tough one without a defined mission. I spent a good part of a year looking at "J"'s even though my mission was going to be 90% over 500 miles. I was also a little nervous from a lot of the M20K talk that you will read IRT pilot workload, cost per hour, etc. however in the end I still felt like the M20K was better suited for what I needed and being able to fly from our house in Va Beach to Florida and Chicago in the high teens in cool smooth air above the the weather in the summer at 175kts true was where I wanted to be. I havent regret

ed it and it has worked great. It just takes a little planning before you come smoking out of 19,000 feet. I will also tell you though that when I go out and just fly during the week or my wife and I jump over to the shanandoahs the 262 does feel like overkill at 6500 feet. But at the end of the day.....you're flying a Mooney, one of the best GA's ever built. Regardless whatever Mooney you end up with it will be great because you will be part of a special club no matter if it's a decked out C to a nice 252.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[chrisk]

On 1/30/2016 at 2:50 PM, HC said:

Thank you so much, everyone, for such valuable information and thoughtful advice. What a nice community!!!

I vividly recall how overwhelming it was to just keep level and straight in my first 5 hours of flying.  Now, approaching 20 hours, I am struggling with pilotage and radio communications as well as being ahead of plane.  Further, how disappointing it is to see irregular shapes of my pattern works and bouncings on the runways in landing C172!

Getting a PPL in a rental plane and then transitioning to Mooney sounds like a very reasonable approach.

Having said that, I must start now searching for a plane that suits my mission, considering how long acquisition process would take.  I cannot afford to go to the dealer and pay cash for whatever new model available.  May I ask your opinion what type of Mooney should I start to looking for, C, E, J or K ? I don't want to extend myself further than current average asking price of K.  

I know that without specifying mission, it is tough to answer. I cannot fully figure it out my mission, either: ocasional flights for business in the east coast, mostly mid-atlantic; regular weekend flights for fun; maybe visiting kids if they go to college far away; and so on. Well, most usage in the imminent future would be my training for IFR, commercial, ...

I really appreciate for your experienced and thoughtful advice in advance.

P.S. FYI, my wish list No. 1 is turbo-charged K model, of course, but that's just based on what I have read in the internet and other magazines that sounded cool. So I want reality check.

 

I've got a K and love it. I've flown a F and loved that too.  My perfect pane would probably be a FIKI Bravo with modern avionics, but it really exceeds my budget. 

Buy the nicest air frame in a model that does what you need 95 to 99% of the time. The remaining 1% to 5% of the time, just sit that one out or fly commercial.

 

[HC]

12 hours ago, anthonydesmet said:

HC,

Yea, that's a tough one without a defined mission. I spent a good part of a year looking at "J"'s even though my mission was going to be 90% over 500 miles. I was also a little nervous from a lot of the M20K talk that you will read IRT pilot workload, cost per hour, etc. however in the end I still felt like the M20K was better suited for what I needed and being able to fly from our house in Va Beach to Florida and Chicago in the high teens in cool smooth air above the the weather in the summer at 175kts true was where I wanted to be. I havent regret

ed it and it has worked great. It just takes a little planning before you come smoking out of 19,000 feet. I will also tell you though that when I go out and just fly during the week or my wife and I jump over to the shanandoahs the 262 does feel like overkill at 6500 feet. But at the end of the day.....you're flying a Mooney, one of the best GA's ever built. Regardless whatever Mooney you end up with it will be great because you will be part of a special club no matter if it's a decked out C to a nice 252.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Thank you so much, Anthony.

I already feel like a proud member of the Special Club.  Do you have any recommendation for Mooney proficient service center for future maintenance as well as PPI in this area?

Thanks in advance.