Wing Damaged by Shop

[hnorber]

A shop that was doing some work on my M20J damaged the wing while it was in their custody.  Apparently a tug slipped on some ice and hit the wing (I'm assuming the tug wasn't pulling my plane a the time).  I've attached pictures below.  The shop owner is proposing to pound out the dents (they're pretty substantial - and I have no idea whether there's any damage to ribs) and use filler for the fix.  I'm trying to get a sense of whether this is an appropriate and reasonable method for fixing dents of this size, as opposed to an entire re-skin (which I'm told would be more than 250 hours of work, since 3 skins would need to come off).  I'm looking for any opinions or thoughts to help guide me in directing this shop in how to proceed.  

 

Thanks in advance!  

-Howard

 

[Bob_Belville]

Where are you located? I believe I'd seek an expert opinion, Maxwell of Longview TX, for example. I'd hate to have a leading edge bondo-ed if it were my plane.

[hnorber]

Thanks, Bob.  I don't want to name the shop right now, but the plane is at Flying Cloud (KFCM) in Minnesota.

[carusoam]

I think I would call my insurance company as well to cover the important details that they are really familiar with.

sorry to hear about this one,

-a-

[hnorber]

Thanks, Carusoam.  I've spoken with my insurance broker - who's been moderately helpful so far, but is really not offering any advice on what would be an acceptable form of repair.

 

[N601RX]

Its pretty large, I have a couple of small quarter sized dings in my leading edge that was filled over before painting several years ago before I purchased it.  The paint has chipped off now and the filler is visible. I would take a play from the "MF FAA thread" and send pictures to Mooney and asked for their opinion.  Based on their previous response they will say the skin should to be replaced, then use that as leverage.  You may want to consider moving it somewhere else who has experience doing this to have it done.  After you add labor and paint this is going to be expensive. I can't tell from the pictures, but does the dented skin overlap the fuel outer fuel tank bay? Does the shop have insurance?

[kevinw]

Like a some of the other guys said, get an expert opinion from someone who has no connection to the shop where the damage happened. You need a guy who is completely independent and you might even consider getting two opinions. Accidents happen, I get that. How they handle it will reveal the type of shop they are. I'm very curious where this happened.

[DAVIDWH]

As a former dilettante of dent removal: IE experience at Swain Auto body shop as a high school teenager, I believe you need to get behind a dent to pound it out.

Thus, skin removal will be necessary in any case.

Or, you could just "Good o boy it"  with duct tape and give the insurance $$ to your wife for holiday shopping.

Best, and sorry for your loss.

[goterminal120]

I have seen a bigger dent than that reshaped than filled from a bird strike. If it were me I would be fighting for new skin. Damage due to no falt of your own should not be fixed with bondo.

[hnorber]

Thanks.  I think the plan for pounding out would be to get behind through the inspection panels.

 

[M20F]

When I picked up my F several years ago Maxell had a plane that had one of those giant cable wheels roll into it (long story) getting reskinned.  If it were me I would want new skins and done by somebody like Maxwell or other top place.  

[MB65E]

Lookes like they wacked the pitot tube too. I once worked in a shop that we changed the same skin with out changing any others. The gear collapsed I front of our hangar when the owner got out of the airplane. Poor guy came in for an oil change and tire it shoved the pitot tube theu the wing. We removed the old skin. Then match drilled the new skin to the old skin. 

We only needed about 3 cherry max rivets in the entire wing. All the holes lined up. We jacked the aircraft, and shored the wing with a welded stand to the hangar floor. This prevented the wing from moving. It can be done. I'd get a ferry permit and take it to Don or someone else that will offer to fix it with a new skin. 

It can be done!

-Matt

[Yetti]

Pics 1 and 2 need a reskin.   The way it is creased and then to bend it back will break if not severely weaken that panel.   The wings are integral structural units.  You don't want a weak link anywhere.    It probably also popped a seam or two in your gas tanks so they need to be repaired.

The suggestion to pound it out is a poor one.

Not an engineer, but I can weld and have broken lots of stuff in my time.

[Mooneymite]

There is also a "loss of value" issue.  Anytime an aircraft is damaged, even if the repair is perfect, there will be "some" effect on resale because of damage history.

This may be a very tough thing to negotiate.

The shop may be better off buying the plane from you at fair market value, repairing it as it sees fit and then re-selling it.

It is a sad situation.  I presume the shop has insurance, but no one does well on a deal like this.

Good luck.

[KSMooniac]

There is no approved repair method to "pound out" dents in aircraft skin.  The skin is a structural element and this damage has compromised the capability of the skin and wing.  The only suitable repair is a re-skin, or to cut out the damage and splice in a repair but that is just as much work as a reskin.

[michæl]

Ouch.  Re-skin, period.  Tank reseal, etc.  Deduct / adjust for light damage history.

[bradp]

Should be repaired properly.   Get opinions from a couple of experts.  I don't know of a FAA approved repair station that I've encountered not carrying insurance.  Talk to your insurance policy holder (they will be potentially more helpful than your broker?).  Get estimates from shops with a reputation for being able to re-skin a Mooney properly (DMax, dugosh and Henry Weber come to mind).  I'd try to get the plane out of that shop in an airworthy fashion and have their or your insurance pay for proper repair.  If you end up having to use your insurance they may try for some sort of subrogation against the shop or their carrier. 

[hnorber]

Thanks, everyone for these responses.  It looks like there's a consensus on re-skin. I'm going to talk to my insurance carrier again today.  If the plane is deemed airworthy to move to a certified repair center - wonder whether the insurance (shop's or mine) will pay for it to be professionally flown (I don't think I'd be comfortable flying it with those dents!)

 

[1964-M20E]

New skin at the shop of your choice paid for by the shop who had it.  Seems fair to me they caused it.

[N601RX]

If the shop is insured then only deal with their insurance.  For now just notify your insurance in case the shop is not insured. Their insurance has a lot more responsibility than yours does.  The only thing your policy is likely responsible for is to repair the damage minus your deductible. If processed through their insurance then they are on the hook to cover all your losses.  This includes your travel time, repairs, loss of value and loss of an airplane to use while yours is being repaired.  There is another member here who had a similar problem at a shop.  The shops insurance ended up paying for him to be transition trained on an Cirrus SR 22 and provided the SR22 for his use until his plane was repaired and back flying. That would make the deal a little less bitter.

 

[C-GHIJ]

The skin needs to be replaced.  I can't believe that the shop wants to pound it out and fill it with body filler.  Doesn't the shop have insurance to cover this and fix it properly?  I would not be taking my plane back to them for any work if they think they can just pound it out.

[Shadrach]

In addition to all of the comments about structural integrity, there is also the consideration that the alclad on the inner surface will never survive the "fix" intact. It should be possible to complete this job without utilizing cherry max rivets, but will likely require an additional access panel cut in the tip (I too suffered wing damage from a ground incident).

If I were in your shoes and a shop owner told me that he wanted to "pound out and fill" damage that was a result of an accident that occurred in his shop, I'd would politely laugh and compliment his sense of humor. The damage is serious; the only way to make you and the airplane whole is to replace the skin.

That's a minimum; some would argue that even that doesn't fully compensate you for your damages.

[Parker_Woodruff]

40 minutes ago, hnorber said:

Thanks, everyone for these responses.  It looks like there's a consensus on re-skin. I'm going to talk to my insurance carrier again today.  If the plane is deemed airworthy to move to a certified repair center - wonder whether the insurance (shop's or mine) will pay for it to be professionally flown (I don't think I'd be comfortable flying it with those dents!)

 

I am not a claims adjuster, but I had a similar experience as you with my Mooney.

My Mooney was tied in Dallas and an untied C172 blew into the leading edge during a thunderstorm.  There was one affected wing skin panel.  The insurance company paid for Maxwell to drive and patch the wing and then the pilot to ferry the aircraft (via special flight permit) to GGG (I was unable due to being on a business trip at the time and forced to fly SWA).  Don had an excellent sheet metal subcontractor come from Louisiana and re-skin the affected portion of the wing.  The skin was pre-cut from Mooney which helped immensely.

I doubt this is a 250 hour job, but I could be wrong.

All said and done, transportation for the plane, delivery pilot, and the repair was about $8800 for one panel (plus paint at another shop), if I remember correctly.  I think it was the third panel from the left wing root.  It wasn't the one on the very end of the wing, but the one just inside that.

You should get the ball rolling with your insurance company so that it's on record.

This is re-skin work.  You don't hammer out aluminum that is already stretched out of line..

[pinerunner]

I think its pretty common knowledge that the skin plays a structural role in the wing. My dad did aircraft rebuilding and that came up a number of times.  A metal winged aircraft can have less beefy wing spars since the skins are adding strength whereas fabric doesn't. Send a note to the manufacturer to get backup if you need it. The shop should have insurance to pay for them making it right with you.

[Sqrtree]

As an AP, I've reskinned many aircraft. Never ever use filler except very minor dings period. With the extent of damage the skin needs to be removed and inspected for damage underneath and replaced with a new sheet and proper rivets.. No cherrymax unless they were previously installed there by the factory.  My professional opinion.