Waiting for release at runway hold line?

[rogerl]

who owns it

Edited March 14, 2021 by rogerl

[wishboneash]

In smaller GA airports usually for IFR releases, the IFR plane should not pull up to the line (even when asked to hold short by ATC) but stay out of the way if possible so VFR aircraft can proceed around them. At least that's what most of us small fry do. Now, if there is no room to manœuvre due to congestion then all bets are off.

[Jerry 5TJ]

Counter-example: once after dropping a passenger at Philladelphia International I was about #11 for departure behind a bunch of twin turboprop commuters all awaiting IFR release. I was VFR. Tower asked, "11Q can you reach the runway?" I said yes. "Cleared for immediate take off" they responded.

I taxied between two lights, onto grass, passed ten pissed-off commuter

crews, back onto runway & departed.

[Marauder]

Sometimes it is hard to gauge your release time. And sometimes you are expecting a quick release and something in the system is delaying your release. Other times, you know from experience that you are likely to be given a very short void time but are in "hold for release" status. So, if you are in a position for a quick launch, you end up going through the process again.

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[201er]

I don't think I ever worried about the guy behind me while waiting at the hold short for an IFR release. Either he's in line behind me waiting for the next release or it isn't legal for him to be flying.

If it's VMC, I will either just take off VFR or if I do ask for IFR, if I don't get it quickly, I will just cancel. Why wait?

I do monitor CTAF on one radio while working clearance on the second. However, if there's a lot of chatter on CTAF or I am busy copying a clearance, I will mute the CTAF radio. This may be why the Falcon didn't hear you. Could have been busy working something out with ATC. Or maybe he just didn't care.

[DrBill]

When I left KSSI last October after the AOPA fly-in. I filed IFR and had to wait for a traffic opening.  i pulled over to the side

of the taxiway to let VFR departures out, then when I got my takeoff clearance, I just went..  Poor operating to hold everyone else up

while you have to wait.  On a towered field they will not let you taxi !!

BILL

 

[N601RX]

On a similiar note I landed at our home field a few months ago and taxied over to the pump.  There was a transient V-tail there.  Thinking he would hurry we just stayed in the plane.  He briefly glanced at us and then resumed talking for 5 minutes.  After he finished talking the he filled the plane up and walked around it slowly.  He finally got in and then it was over 5 minutes before the prop ever turned over.  Once the motor was running it was another 5 minutes before he pulled up enough for us to get fuel.  It took close to 30 minutes.  We took almost the same amount of fuel and was back to the hanger in 10 minutes.

[Andy95W]

  On 9/4/2015 at 6:55 PM, jerry-N5911Q said:

Counter-example: once after dropping a passenger at Philladelphia International I was about #11 for departure behind a bunch of twin turboprop commuters all awaiting IFR release. I was VFR. Tower asked, "11Q can you reach the runway?" I said yes. "Cleared for immediate take off" they responded.

I taxied between two lights, onto grass, passed ten pissed-off commuter

crews, back onto runway & departed.

Trust me, they weren't pissed off.  If they were still at the gate with the door open and not getting paid, then they'd be pissed off.

[Jim Peace]

  On 9/4/2015 at 11:18 PM, 201er said:

I don't think I ever worried about the guy behind me while waiting at the hold short for an IFR release. Either he's in line behind me waiting for the next release or it isn't legal for him to be flying.

Clueless......

Edited September 5, 2015 by Jim Peace

[carqwik]

Methinks (just a guess) that Falcon jet was going to some big city airport and had a flow time...so departing VFR even doesn't do him any good since he'd just do circles somewhere until his flow time opened up.  OTOH, very rude behavior not to monitor the CTAF on his part...he could have done some laps on the runway/taxiway to let you out...

[carqwik]

Methinks (just a guess) that Falcon jet was going to some big city airport and had a flow time...so departing VFR even doesn't do him any good since he'd just do circles somewhere until his flow time opened up.  OTOH, very rude behavior not to monitor the CTAF on his part...he could have done some laps on the runway/taxiway to let you out...

[Mooneymite]

Figure out what frequency the Falcon is on for his clearance, then when there's a break on the frequency, transmit "Falcon 123XP, come up 123.0."

When he does, ask him to allow you runway access for a VFR departure.

I suspect the Falcon presumed you were also awaitng release.

[Johnnybgoode]

I suspect the Falcon perhaps never checked his rearview mirror.

Just because one IFR is awaiting release doesn't mean others cannot go - delay might be due to slot time at destination.

[peevee]

  On 9/5/2015 at 1:41 PM, Johnnybgoode said:

I suspect the Falcon perhaps never checked his rearview mirror.

Just because one IFR is awaiting release doesn't mean others cannot go - delay might be due to slot time at destination.

he could very easily be going to denver and be on a 15 minute delay.

[chrisk]

  On 9/4/2015 at 4:49 PM, rogerl said:

Yesterday departing KTEX, while trying to be amicable to a request by the bozo at the FBO I taxied up A to behind a falcon holding for RWY 27 at A4.  Shortly thereafter another biz jet taxis into position behind me on A for RWY 27.  Turns out this **&$$ in the falcon was sitting there waiting for his release time (or some ATC mumbo jumbo).  I was in position on A for literally 25 minutes - had to shut down the IO550 it was so long, and was worried about a lengthy hot start procedure (turned out not to be an issue luckily).  After about 10 of those minutes I queried by tail number so ask what wait we were expecting here and mr. falcon wasn't talking.

 

I've never had this happen before (although my first KTEX departure, regularly am out of KDRO and other non-towered fields with substantial bizjet traffic).  Am I completely out of line thinking that this guy in the falcon was a total d!ck, blocking access to the runway at the runway hold line waiting for his ATC activity?  Is this SOP that anyone knows of?

 

While fueling minutes before I had watched a cirrus taxi to A2, back taxi on 27, then do his takeoff.  Now I know why.

 

I wrote a review concerning the FBO bozo who asked me to taxi into that position, but the language was shall we say a little colorful so it won't go up most likely.  Next time I won't be so accommodating, that's for sure.  Seems like some guy at KTEX likes to try and 'play controller' ... so careful up there.

 

So, flame shields up ... what's your opinion?

I don't know what time you were departing KTEX, but around 10am traffic was stacked up waiting to get into KTEX.   And based on the approaches there, I would expect a long hold if someone was inbound.   Also, its kind of fun to look at the approach plates for KTEX.  Throw the 321 rule out of the window.  The MDA is 12,200.  The airport TDZ is 9038.  A 2000 foot ceiling doesn't even get you to MDA.    

As for waiting at the runway for a hold for an IFR release.  At a towered airport, I wait at the runway hold short line.  The tower can move me if they want.   At a non-towered airport I usually take off VFR and pick up IFR in the air.  If it's bad enough, that I need to get a clearance before I get off the ground, I'll pull to the side.  --But it also means there usually isn't any VFR traffic.

Back to the issue at KTEX.  Based on what I saw for weather yesterday, I probably would have waited for a clearance on the ground.  When I flew into KMTJ, ceilings were around 12,000 and folks were picking up light rime at 17,000.  There were also spots of very hazy weather. (1 mile visibility, maybe less, and a jet not being able to see Gunnison).   Telluride is a bit of a canyon.  I'd be concerned with taking off, then finding a cloud a little further down the valley that I couldn't see when I took off.   And a jet is going to want to punch through the cloud deck  ASAP.  

 

 

 

 

[chrisk]

  On 9/5/2015 at 3:05 AM, Jim Peace said:

Clueless......

What went unsaid is he takes off VFR and picks up his clearance in the air.  If he can't do that, its usually because the weather is not VFR.   This is a reasonably way to do things if there is no terrain to worry about.  And it's why he doesn't need to worry about folks behind him waiting to take off.

[M016576]

An IFR release isn't something you pick up from CD or ground- you have to get it from tower.  Normally you're in position to take the runway when you contact tower for takeoff, and that's when you get held up for IFR release.

Some commercial operations are restricted in their ability to accept a vfr takeoff / departure from certain airfields.  KSUN is one that I'm familiar with... You'll see 30 net jets lined up for the gps approach and going missed due to a layer at 1000' in the south valley where as vfr prop jobs and bug smashers (ie us in our mooneys) can duck in to the valley from the north where it's clear and land vfr.

the falcon crew wasn't being rude to you- they just got held up at an inconvenient location.  It happens.

 

Edit- ski resorts... BIG Mountains... These thing play havoc with IFR operations.

Edited September 5, 2015 by M016576

[peevee]

  On 9/5/2015 at 3:46 PM, M016576 said:

An IFR release isn't something you pick up from CD or ground- you have to get it from tower.  Normally you're in position to take the runway when you contact tower for takeoff, and that's when you get held up for IFR release.

you're going to wait a long time at TEX for CD or ground to get back to you. Especially on denver center's freq.

[chrisk]

Rogerl,  I got a little off topic. I get why you are unhappy with the guy in the Falcon.  It seems like he could have waited on the ramp for his clearance before taxing to the runway, as it doesn't look like there is a run up area off to the side of the taxiway.  This seems like something the FBO should have suggested.  Or the FBO could have suggested you contact the Falcon to see if he was ready to go.  If not, back taxi and go.  Of course, that might be a lot to ask from a FBO, as most folks working in one are not a pilot.

[Mooneymite]

Generally, FBO folk have absolutely nothing to do with anything going on beyond their ramp.  Once off the ramp at an uncontrolled airport, FAR's, good sense and courtesy should prevail.  I'm not making excuses for the Falcon, but it is easy to see how it got "stuck" at the hold short line. 

You didn't say which runway you were using, but TEX mostly departs RWY 27.  As I recall, there's "some" maneuver room near the hold short line and the taxiway does provide for alternate access to the runway, but you'd have to back taxi.  Alternatively, had a request been made, the Falcon could have taxied onto Rwy 27, allowed the traffic behind access to the runway and then re-cleared onto the taxiway behind the hold short line.  This assumes you could have figured out which frequency the Falcon was on for his clearance.  If he was on his phone, there wouldn't be much you could do once you were sandwiched between IFR departures.

[jetdriven]

  On 9/4/2015 at 6:55 PM, jerry-N5911Q said:

Counter-example: once after dropping a passenger at Philladelphia International I was about #11 for departure behind a bunch of twin turboprop commuters all awaiting IFR release. I was VFR. Tower asked, "11Q can you reach the runway?" I said yes. "Cleared for immediate take off" they responded.

I taxied between two lights, onto grass, passed ten pissed-off commuter

crews, back onto runway & departed.

You taxied onto the grass around the other planes?  wow, just wow....  I hope you were joking...

Edited September 6, 2015 by jetdriven

[kortopates]

+1, my thought exactly

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[Robert C.]

OK, not sure how qualified I am to comment as I'm not a jet jockey and only 1 year IFR rated but here goes anyway:

No comment on the FBO guy and his request

The Falcon undoubtedly had his clearance with a "hold for release" which he was given before taxing. He most likely was instructed to taxi to the runway, call clearance delivery or FSS when in position for release. He may or may not have been given an estimated release time at that point.

Now think about his position. He gets to the runway, turns into the runup area, calls Clrnc "ready for departure". Clrnc Del: Roger, Hold for Release. 3 GA aircraft taxi up, line up and wait for the 2 guys in the pattern to land.

Clnc Del: Falcon 22X released, void time 3 minutes, contact departures on 000.00 once airborne.

Uh...oops clnc del guess Falcon can't make it and will call you when able. And there he sits wasring fuel and busting his schedule and getting his boss and passengers mad at him without anyone to blame but himself.

No run-up area? Even worse. He stays at the ramp, gets his release and he cannot taxi there quick enough to take advantage of it.

Not too far fetched based on my own experience. I am based on a towered airport and have had to wait for the jet in front of me to be released and have in turn been responsible for VFR pilots behind me having to wait. But the tower is always clear. "Taxi to the hold short line and wait for release."

That said: I'd be annoyed too having to wait 25 minutes, so I hear you loud and clear. Happily this isn't a daily ocurrence, right  

 

[Hank]

I have seen an airliner at the Hold Short line, uncontrolled field, when two of us wanted to leave. We asked him, he was waiting for release. My friend pulled out one intersection in front and back taxied almost to his nose before turning and taking off. Because the intersection left about 7000' of runway, I simply made an intersection departure.

sometimes all it takes is a polite question on the radio. He said he'd be a while, we asked to depart, he had no problem. We left, he continued to wait on the satellite phone.

[201er]

  On 9/7/2015 at 1:54 AM, Hank said:

We left, he continued to wait on the satellite phone.

I wonder the look on the passenger's faces when everyone in those little planes was cutting the line and getting out quicker!