Should Mooney bring back the 201?

[ryoder]

This has probably been beaten to death but why doesn't Mooney bring back the 201? It could compete with the Arrow at $457k that only flies at 137kts. What would the 201 sell for?

[M20F-1968]

It's like building an Ovation but with a different engine.  Perhaps even more due to two different air frames on the assembly line.   Cost would be expected to be similar to the Ovation, but for maybe a differential in the engine costs.  

If they do anything like a 201, I would expect it to be composite cabin with a metal (or composite) wing.

 

John Breda

[Bob_Belville]

How many PA28R are being sold these days? Didn't Piper just have a big lay off?

[Robert C.]

They are bringing it back...as the M10J

Can't imagine it being economical to bring back an out of production aluminum airplane in the age of glass panels and fiberglass hulls.

[Cruiser]

They did!

 

Where have you been? http://www.mooney.com/aircraft/m10j/

[Conrad]

The question would not be how to compete with a 457k Arrow, it'd be how to compete with the existing fleet of J's...

[N33GG]

Inspite of a big fleet, Beech continued to produce the Barron, Piper produced the Cherokee 6, and Cessna the C182, and I know people who bought all of them. Never made sense to me as an aircraft buyer, but to others it did. Go figure...

I've bought many used aircraft, chose carefully, spent money on maintenance and avionics upgrades, flown thousands of safe hours, and never put down the big bucks for new. Almost did once, but then I decided I could use that money on other things. My used airplanes have been just fine.

Nothing against those who buy new. It's a choice, and if you have plenary of AMU's, more power to you!

[M016576]

Inspite of a big fleet, Beech continued to produce the Barron, Piper produced the Cherokee 6, and Cessna the C182, and I know people who bought all of them. Never made sense to me as an aircraft buyer, but to others it did. Go figure...

I've bought many used aircraft, chose carefully, spent money on maintenance and avionics upgrades, flown thousands of safe hours, and never put down the big bucks for new. Almost did once, but then I decided I could use that money on other things. My used airplanes have been just fine.

Nothing against those who buy new. It's a choice, and if you have plenary of AMU's, more power to you!

It seems like those that buy new do so for the tax write off IMO. I wish I had that "problem"

[mike_elliott]

The question would not be how to compete with a 457k Arrow, it'd be how to compete with the existing fleet of J's...

That is the issue Mooney International now has. How to compete with the existing fleet.

[PTK]

The M10J is a new airplane and I applaude Mooney for this.

As far as being a J replacement? It does comes close but it's not quite an M20J!

Not really sure how the 1200 hour TBO will fly either!

The venerable J is still the best airplane Mooney has ever built.

[BKlott]

I've often wondered if Mooney would bring back a C model with manual gear and flaps along with just a Nav/Com and Transponder what they could sell it for ... and how many they could sell?

[flyntgr1]

A good successer would be a stretched M10 with 4 seats and a low compression IO-390 that could run unleaded. They could call it an M15 and do like the M10. Have a fixed gear competitor to the 172 and a retract to compete with the SR20.

[KSMooniac]

I've often wondered if Mooney would bring back a C model with manual gear and flaps along with just a Nav/Com and Transponder what they could sell it for ... and how many they could sell?

It would very likely be north of $500k, unfortunately. And it wouldn't sell, just like the J and the S couldn't sell when the prices got too high relative to the Ovation.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

[Tom]

Can't imagine it being economical to bring back an out of production aluminum airplane in the age of glass panels and fiberglass hulls.

 

Consider:

http://www.saintaviation.com/perf.htm

http://www.saintaviation.com/pricing.htm

[carusoam]

Tom,

Check the dates on that website...

Seems to come to a screeching halt around 2008's economic melt down.

Those were tough times for aviation.

Best regards,

-a-

[Tommy]

Not likely.

 

People who can afford a NEW M20J can afford an Ovation or Acclaim - the price difference won't be great - and plenty of gas. So why a new M20J? Unless AVgas hits $15 a gallon.

 

Even then, a well looked after M20J costs easily one-fifth of a new unit. In this new era of fixed undercarriage (lower cost), bigger engine, fibre glass frame, and parachute system, M20J is simply not competitive enough at the price range of 650-700K.

[ryoder]

Cessna sells new 172s for around 300k and somebody is buying them. People outside of aviation assume that repainting, redoing interior, and putting a new engine and prop on a plane would cost more than a new one. They would be wrong.

The M10T is no J. Looks cool though.

[N33GG]

3 place plane design is primarily for instruction of flight crews. Not sure about the commercial viability in the US market.

[StinkBug]

I think the only reason Cessna can sell 172s for $300k is because they are 172s and people will buy them for flight schools and amortize that expense over many years of making money off the thing. Not so much for a J. When you think about it it's the same as an Ovation but smaller and with a different engine. The engine cost isn't gonna be very much different and people like having extra leg room. It's only gonna end up costing a few grand less, and the only selling point will be lower fuel burn. If you have that kinda money to burn on a brand new plane I kinda doubt the cost of a couple extra GPH is gonna make the decision for you.

[Tom]

Check the dates on that website...

Seems to come to a screeching halt around 2008's economic melt down.

 

 

There was no screeching halt. http://www.blueskyaviation.net/how_it_works.html is from 2012.  If you insist I will ping for updated numbers but I'm simply trying to make the point that you can have an RV-10 built with everything new spinner to tail including a glass panel, GTN 750, and an autopilot that will fly the approach for under 300AMU.

 

Compared to the J, the RV-10 has superior interior space, superior short-field utility, essentially equal speed, range, and  fuel economy, two doors, fixed gear, ease of maintenance and lower maintenance costs as well as less nonsensical regulatory issues to deal with.

 

With some volume and utilizing some overseas labor I bet Mooney could produce a 201 for under 400k...but who would buy it when better alternatives are available for less?

 

For reference:

21 year production of the J yielded 2,130 aircraft.

12 year production thus far of RV-10 kits has yielded 768+ aircraft flown.

[mike_elliott]

There was no screeching halt. http://www.blueskyaviation.net/how_it_works.html is from 2012.  If you insist I will ping for updated numbers but I'm simply trying to make the point that you can have an RV-10 built with everything new spinner to tail including a glass panel, GTN 750, and an autopilot that will fly the approach for under 300AMU.

 

Compared to the J, the RV-10 has superior interior space, superior short-field utility, essentially equal speed, range, and  fuel economy, two doors, fixed gear, ease of maintenance and lower maintenance costs as well as less nonsensical regulatory issues to deal with.

 

With some volume and utilizing some overseas labor I bet Mooney could produce a 201 for under 400k...but who would buy it when better alternatives are available for less?

 

For reference:

21 year production of the J yielded 2,130 aircraft.

12 year production thus far of RV-10 kits has yielded 768+ aircraft flown.

 

Or put a deposit on this

http://www.raptor-aircraft.com/

[Lood]

I would then much rather just buy the RV10 or if it has to be a Mooney, I'd buy a used Ovation - for less half that of a new J.

Either are more capable and I'll have $200k odd in change to spend on running costs and maintenance.

[ArtVandelay]

Or put a deposit on this

http://www.raptor-aircraft.com/

Maybe you should wait it until they actually build one.

[carusoam]

New RV10 = $300k

New Cessna 172 = $300k

Used Mooney M20R = $200k

Used Mooney M20J = $100k

Would a new M20J have interest at $400k?

Audi or Fiat(?) powered full scale Raptor? (You going first, Mike?)

Best regards,

-a-

[DaV8or]

I have said for years that MAC should re engineer the M20J to be a kit plane. Instead of all metal, it should be more composite construction for ease of construction. A follow on, or prelude should be a kit version of the two seat Mooney M20 T Predator again using more composite that metal.

 

 

I also think an either composite, or metal, single seat and tandem seat, Rotax powered version of the M18 Mite would be popular.

 

For years we have seen kit companies try to get into the certified market, but why can't a certified plane manufacturer get into the kit market? There seems to be more promise and sunshine in the kit business by the looks of it.

 

As to the original question of this thread, no. Mooney should not bring back the M20J as a factory built certified airplane. It is in no way viable. They tried to bring it back in the past and it failed. No reason to think it would succeed this time.