First Mooney

[drapo]

When I was looking for a Mooney, back in 2010, there were about 10 Mooney for sale in Canada, 5 were vintage (pre-77). Inventory wasn't very good and prices were high. Since the exchange rate was a bit better in those days,  I decided to go south of the border to hunt for the perfect Mooney.

 

From a list of 15, the three finalists were a Florida 66 M20C, another 66 M20C in Oklahoma and finally a NY state 65 M20E, asking prices were around $50k (within $3k). Florida was IFR with 2 KX155, Oklahoma VFR KX155 with Garmin 396 GPS and NY IFR with kx165 and GNS430. So sometimes, going for a C to get better equipment isn't the answer.

 

After negotiations, the Florida would'nt budge on it's $50K asking price, my offer of $38K for the Oklahoma C was accepted but it didn't pass the inspection (engine), so made an offer at $43k on the NY state and became the owner of N5779Q (now C-GJDP), after an importation process that ended up costing $5K.

 

All that to say make sure you do your homework, don't look at the buying price as the final price, cause as Clarence said, the C you're looking at could easily end up costing another $20K, and that's only for repairs you know it needs and we haven't talked about the avionics situation yet... Like the song says " Take your time, do it right..."

[Rookie]

Badmoonrising, I can tell you that you are in good hands when this question was asked!

There is so much experience on this site!

They can answer any Mooney question!

[Browncbr1]

Badmoon, I really suggest you not bother with that C. You'll end up having much more into it than it's worth. I have seen good E models go for that price. I think you would be much happier with the fuel injection and extra power of an E. Not to mention speed. I think the E is the best mooney for a single guy with $30-40k. F is best for a family guy with $40-50k

[BKlott]

My Dad had a 1964 C Model that had a fresh engine, prop and paint job. That airplane moved right along. He told me that he used to flight plan using 150 mph and it always worked out real close. In later years I flew a 1968 C Model and a newer J model. Truthfully, I liked that C Model better as I had to adjust the seat all the way forward in the J just to reach the rudder pedals...and full extension was a real stretch. I'm 5' 10", no midget.

The C Model has a longer TBO than the E. The E may be harder to start as it is fuel injected versus carbureted as on the C.

I think the more important consideration is that corrosion proofing appears to be a bit inconsistent during the Mooney production run. From what I have been able to learn (do not accept this as fact, just hearsay) the 1964 era Mooneys had no factory corrosion proofing. Sometime later, starting in 1965 or 1966, there was some corrosion proofing in the fuselage. Later on, 1968 or so, they starting cutting costs with things like fixed boarding steps and cowl flaps and probably started cutting back on corrosion proofing as well.

Some guys have told me that their airframes are zinc chromated and others, such as Dave's in "just learned my C is junk" had none. Corrosion can render your airplane worthless as it can cost more to repair it than it is worth.

Just like if you purchase a C Model and end up spending a bunch on avionics, a propellor, paint, interior and engine job (or some combination of these big bills), you will have far more money in the airplane than you can sell it for. This is a common occurrence with many models of airplanes that you can purchase and is not unique to C Model Mooneys. The simple truth is that the cost of fixing up these airplanes far exceeds the airplanes value on the market.

One school of thought is to purchase a plane that has had these big bills recently taken care of and then sell the airplane before you have to incur the big bills yourself. Easier said than done.

You can find many ads for Mooneys that need some of the big bills. Do the math yourself and see that the owner is just wanting too much money to make it worth your while to buy and fix up the airplane. For example, there is a 1968 C Model that has been advertised at $29k+ with recent glass and interior. It has the original paint job from 1968 and an engine at or near TBO. it also will need ADS-B. Say you pay the $29k asking price (not my recommendation...just for example). What are you going to pay for the paint job? That is going to run $10k to $15k, right? What is the engine job going to cost you? A quality overhaul is going to cost $25k to $28k or more. You are already at $64k to $72k and you still need to put in ADS-B for about $8k or more.

Your $29k C Model has now cost you $72k to $80k and that is before you have any surprises. Throw in some leaky tanks, the need for new donuts and where are you then? You are not going to get your money back out of that airplane for a very long time if ever.

When you purchase the airplane and start down this road, you better be in it for the long haul and be willing to stick with that airplane until you are done flying or I am not sure that it is worth it. It certainly is not worth it financially.

While I do not own a Mooney I have 18 years of aircraft ownership experience to draw from. I joined this site because I too was considering looking for a 1964 C Model like my Dad had but will probably not ever do that. He had his Mooney 45 years ago. I've reached the conclusion (hang on ... this is going to draw some fire) that if I am going to sell my corrosion free 172 for another airplane, it will only be for an airplane that was zinc chromated at the factory. That leaves, with rare exceptions, Comanches, Apaches and North American built Navions. I am not going to buy an Apache or a Navion.

I hope this was helpful to you and wish you the very best in your Mooney search!

[carusoam]

I agree with BK...

Dads that fly M20Cs Rock!

-a-

[Shadrach]

My Dad had a 1964 C Model that had a fresh engine, prop and paint job. That airplane moved right along. He told me that he used to flight plan using 150 mph and it always worked out real close. In later years I flew a 1968 C Model and a newer J model. Truthfully, I liked that C Model better as I had to adjust the seat all the way forward in the J just to reach the rudder pedals...and full extension was a real stretch. I'm 5' 10", no midget.

The C Model has a longer TBO than the E. The E may be harder to start as it is fuel injected versus carbureted as on the C.

I think the more important consideration is that corrosion proofing appears to be a bit inconsistent during the Mooney production run. From what I have been able to learn (do not accept this as fact, just hearsay) the 1964 era Mooneys had no factory corrosion proofing. Sometime later, starting in 1965 or 1966, there was some corrosion proofing in the fuselage. Later on, 1968 or so, they starting cutting costs with things like fixed boarding steps and cowl flaps and probably started cutting back on corrosion proofing as well.

Some guys have told me that their airframes are zinc chromated and others, such as Dave's in "just learned my C is junk" had none. Corrosion can render your airplane worthless as it can cost more to repair it than it is worth.

Just like if you purchase a C Model and end up spending a bunch on avionics, a propellor, paint, interior and engine job (or some combination of these big bills), you will have far more money in the airplane than you can sell it for. This is a common occurrence with many models of airplanes that you can purchase and is not unique to C Model Mooneys. The simple truth is that the cost of fixing up these airplanes far exceeds the airplanes value on the market.

One school of thought is to purchase a plane that has had these big bills recently taken care of and then sell the airplane before you have to incur the big bills yourself. Easier said than done.

You can find many ads for Mooneys that need some of the big bills. Do the math yourself and see that the owner is just wanting too much money to make it worth your while to buy and fix up the airplane. For example, there is a 1968 C Model that has been advertised at $29k+ with recent glass and interior. It has the original paint job from 1968 and an engine at or near TBO. it also will need ADS-B. Say you pay the $29k asking price (not my recommendation...just for example). What are you going to pay for the paint job? That is going to run $10k to $15k, right? What is the engine job going to cost you? A quality overhaul is going to cost $25k to $28k or more. You are already at $64k to $72k and you still need to put in ADS-B for about $8k or more.

Your $29k C Model has now cost you $72k to $80k and that is before you have any surprises. Throw in some leaky tanks, the need for new donuts and where are you then? You are not going to get your money back out of that airplane for a very long time if ever.

When you purchase the airplane and start down this road, you better be in it for the long haul and be willing to stick with that airplane until you are done flying or I am not sure that it is worth it. It certainly is not worth it financially.

While I do not own a Mooney I have 18 years of aircraft ownership experience to draw from. I joined this site because I too was considering looking for a 1964 C Model like my Dad had but will probably not ever do that. He had his Mooney 45 years ago. I've reached the conclusion (hang on ... this is going to draw some fire) that if I am going to sell my corrosion free 172 for another airplane, it will only be for an airplane that was zinc chromated at the factory. That leaves, with rare exceptions, Comanches, Apaches and North American built Navions. I am not going to buy an Apache or a Navion.

I hope this was helpful to you and wish you the very best in your Mooney search!

My 67 F was zinc chromated at the factory from the baggage compartment back (I've since done the rest of the fuselage). However, the wings are not. It matters little as the all clad is a shiny as the day it was new.

[Guitarmaster]

Bad Moon:

The other gotcha to be aware of looking at 60's planes is that many are owned by frugal codgers who have been getting annuals from a buddy so as to avoid performing necessary maintenance - who are now selling hoping to dump the responsibility for a decade or two of upkeep on an uninformed buyer. A logbook full of annuals that replace nothing more than the oil in the sump can be

Tim

Boy, truer words have never been said!

Supposedly my plane went through an "extensive" annual before I bought it... Ummm, right.

First annual found a bunch of $$$ things!

Avionics are a HUGE, let me repeat, HUGE deal. Ask me how I know... Lol!

Good luck with the plane search!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Marauder]

Boy, truer words have never been said!

Supposedly my plane went through an "extensive" annual before I bought it... Ummm, right.

First annual found a bunch of $$$ things!

Avionics are a HUGE, let me repeat, HUGE deal. Ask me how I know... Lol!

Good luck with the plane search!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Avionics are indeed a huge deal. Both from a reliability and a capability standpoint. Nothing is worse than getting ready to do a trip and to find a radio is out of service.

People always asked why I never sold the same plane I have owned for the past 24 years. Simple answer, I corrected every problem I found and I just don't want to start over again.

Besides, I'm now in the "make pretty" phase. Time to redo the interior, then the paint. Mechanically & avionics wise, I know I have a great airframe, solid engine and new avionics.

Put new undies on the interior and pretty blue dress on the exterior and she will clean up just like my favorite women.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Badmoonraising]

You guys are scaring the hell out of me. Maybe that's a good thing. I only have experience with my little C150 and I must say it was a positive experience. I think maybe I got lucky!

 

I didn't know the corrosion issue was so big. From what I am reading it does sound like the E or F model would better suit my needs. I'm really looking for speed. So many of us get away from our flying because we simply don't have a need to fly. We fly because we want too. Well in my case, I want to fly but I also have a need to fly. It's not because its cheap. Of course that is not the case. It just better to be able to come an go when you want (weather permitting). 

 

I must say I like the idea of manually operated  landing gear. And from the sound of it that would put me in a E prior to 1968. But then there is the corrosion issue. 

 

BKlott's insightful post is interesting. A Commanche is another consideration. The problem with Commanche's is parts availability. 

[Marauder]

You guys are scaring the hell out of me. Maybe that's a good thing. I only have experience with my little C150 and I must say it was a positive experience. I think maybe I got lucky!

I didn't know the corrosion issue was so big. From what I am reading it does sound like the E or F model would better suit my needs. I'm really looking for speed. So many of us get away from our flying because we simply don't have a need to fly. We fly because we want too. Well in my case, I want to fly but I also have a need to fly. It's not because its cheap. Of course that is not the case. It just better to be able to come an go when you want (weather permitting).

I must say I like the idea of manually operated landing gear. And from the sound of it that would put me in a E prior to 1968. But then there is the corrosion issue.

BKlott's insightful post is interesting. A Commanche is another consideration. The problem with Commanche's is parts availability.

I haven't read the whole thread, but there are nice planes out there. Don't let the goblins scare you, just make sure you have a thorough pre-purchase done on the plane.

Once you identified one, see if any of us know it.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[ryoder]

This forum for some reason scares people away from Mooneys the way the other brand C forum does not. Not sure why but it does.

I posted that I bought a Mooney here and all the replies made me want to put it in the market the next day.

Ten months later I am doing ok on maintenance costs and have had a couple of upgrades. Tanks don't need to cost ten thousand dollars. I'd get out of aviation if those kinds of costs were mandated. Overhauls don't need to cost 25k.

Here are my costs. Feel free to flame.

65C for 20K with runout engine, nice paint, good old school IFR DME, clean panel, two owners, always hangared, 2460 TT

2k tank strip and seal

1500 one piece windshield

850 new gyro installed

300 new carpet

300 new door panel

1850 new Michel MX170C nav com two

200 new compass

90 used VOR

400 new ignition switch

200 repair transponder and clean contacts on cluster gauges mark ammeter inop

70 dollar oil changes done by A&P with my help includes oil

210 prop hub inspection

500 fine wire plugs

700 new tires installed and engine and airframe checked right after I bought it

This airplane burns 6.5 gph the way I fly it and I have put around 85 hours on it this year. There are definitely other costs not accounted for here but I can't think of them now. When I bought it it was just annualled at a cost of around 4k by a shop that didn't know the owner and that is trusted in the community. That included new hoses, brakes, some reprainting of elevator controls etc.

I have the old donuts from fifty years ago and they still pass inspection. The nose gear has the new style. If I get the engine overhauled I'll got Jewell Aviation and get it done minus the carb and mags for 11k installed. I have local options for low cost carb and mag work.

[Marauder]

I think what you are seeing is a result of a fairly diverse group of owners. We have owners that own very old airplanes and those that have $700,000 plus Acclaims.

Naturally this leads to a variety of opinions on how to spend your money.

[urbanti]

Bad Moon

I feel like this thread has been pushed way over the deep end:

Here are the facts:

1. If you want a plane with no corrosion and no damage and zero hours, buy a new or recent plane for new plane prices.

2. If you have a budget of $30- $70k you are generally going to be looking at used planes from the 1960s and 1970s.

3. Unless they were taken off the production line, packed with grease, and stored in the Smithsonian, virtually all used planes from the 1960's and 1970s will have some combination of : Obsolete avionics, wear and tear, minor damage and non-significant corrosion, etc.

4. A combination of patient shopping and relying upon the advice of an expert mechanic can ensure that you do not inadvertently buy an airplane with significant hidden flaws, like structural corrosion.

5. Once you own a good plane, its up to you to use common sense techniques like hangaring, use of covers when necessary, and regular application of anticorrosion spray to uncoated surfaces.

6. If you do your part, you will pass the plane on in 20 years or so to the next owner in largely the same shape that you received it in, probably with new avionics and a new engine.

Have fun shopping, dont get intimidated!

Tim

[Shadrach]

I think there are some misunderstandings being perpetuated here. Anyone who feels they know better, feel free to chime in and correct me!

Engine TBO - it's the same for all of the Lycoming 360s O, IO, AEIO - 2000hrs

Corrosion - surface corrosion can be prevented with protective coverings like zinc chromate. Zinc Chromate will do little to prevent intergranular corrosion. This is the type of corrosion that more typically will destroy a structural part of the airframe. This type of corrosion is primarily caused by impurities be present during the manufacturing process. This manifests itself as separation of said impurities along grain boundaries. Moisture can initiate or hasten the reaction. It can happen to any airplane at any age. I would not consider a mid 60s plane to be at greater risk than a mid 80s plane. If you find a good corrosion free bird, don't worry about its age. If you find a bird that has had corrosion repairs, that tells me that someone was actually inspecting the aircraft. Corrosion caught early can be stopped and repaired.

All Mooneys (excluding M22) prior to (IIRC) 68 had manual gear. I beleive it was an option in 68. I think manual gear was discontinued in 70.

A good prebuy is essential. Your concerns about corrosion are well founded, but I would be looking very closely for corrosion on any used airframe. If it's clean, you can take your own measures to try and keep it that way.

[mike_elliott]

The C Model has a longer TBO than the E. The E may be harder to start as it is fuel injected versus carbureted as on the C.

A couple of nits to pick, the E's engine, the IO360 A1A has a 2000 hr TBO, and they are only difficult to start if you don't know how to, which can be touted as a "feature" if you think like a DHS agent

[drapo]

Not trying to scare away a potential Mooney owner, just sharing experiences.

Here's the deal! A good condition airplane nowadays is around $45k. So Mooneys will sell for $50k for an F, $45k for an E and $40k for a C. Add modern GPS and stuff, you'll add half of the improvement value to this amount, but to a certain limit. You won't get $75k for a well equipped C.

Now if engine is close or above TBO, prop needing overhaul, paint shot, ripped interior, no avionics or pre 1980 radios, tanks dripping or anything major, substract half of the cost of replacement to the original amount to get a realistic price.

So below $30k for a C needing engine in the near future is a realistic price. After a serious pre-buy, I wouldn't offer anything over $25k for a C needing fuel tanks and prop work. Not saying you shouldn't buy it, just saying to use caution. Would do the same if you asked me about a Skyhawk with narco radios, school time and engine at TBO.

[carusoam]

Some TBO times for O360s were 1800 hrs. The cylinders had small diameter valves...

A GOOD PPI would identify that...

Most of those planes have been OH or topped since then...

Best regards,

-a-

[gsxrpilot]

Here's my real world example.

 

1964 M20C - $54K purchased in 2014.

GEM G2 Engine monitor install - $2500.

140 hours of 100LL purchased and used up.

 

I bought it to fly, not to fix. And it flies at well at 150 KTS TAS.

 

Pre-Buy and Annual - Don Maxwell (included in purchase price)

Corrosion - None

Paint - Recent

Interior - Leather

Speed Mods - All of them

Radios/GPS - GNS 530W

Autopilot - STech 30

Century HSI

Etc, Etc, Etc.

 

Unless you're an A&P/AI... it doesn't pay to buy a fixer upper.

[Browncbr1]

My 67 F was zinc chromated at the factory from the baggage compartment back (I've since done the rest of the fuselage). However, the wings are not. It matters little as the all clad is a shiny as the day it was new.

mine too

[Browncbr1]

I haven't read the whole thread, but there are nice planes out there. Don't let the goblins scare you, just make sure you have a thorough pre-purchase done on the plane.

Once you identified one, see if any of us know it.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

+2

There are more scare posts on this forum than I found consistent with reality...

It is reasonable to assume that a plane that has lived near the coast for 40 years will have corrosion somewhere. Likewise, it is reasonable that a plane in a hangar in a cold dry climate its whole life would have little corrosion. When I was looking at planes, coastal locations were deal breakers for me, I wouldn't even look. I ended up finding a good clean one that lived it's whole life in a MN hangar with a long time owner... Do yourself a favor,.. just focus on finding a good clean airframe... all else, such as avionics, motor, appliances, etc are replaceable.

Someone on here said that people with 60's era mooneys are cheap and defer maintenance.. I don't agree... I, and many others, have a slightly lower acquisition cost 60's era model so there is plenty of budget leftover for anal meticulous preventative maintenance. For example, when I acquired mine, I had the entire fuel delivery system overhauled just for peace of mind... I see a lot of high dollar planes showing threads on the tires.. .. I figure it's because they are broke after buying it... I also honestly believe the 67 year was the best vintage and the proven safe johnson bar system was not offered in the later years.. don't let anyone scare you. My F is easy to start, hot or cold.... forget about it..... use your head and take a lot of salt with what you read on these forums.

[bonal]

Saying things like don't buy a C because you wont be able to sell it seems kind of biased and since there are many C owners here I would think they actually had to buy them.  I have been looking under lots of rocks and have yet to find any Mooney C's under them.  I bought my D/C did not do a PPI (big mistake) but being a cheap bastard I took it to one of the most respected MSC and spent over 60% of the purchase price getting it straightened out.  Will I ever get my money out of it, no but I did not buy it to sell I bought it to fly. A short body Manual gear carbureted O-360 is a great FUN TO FLY airplane and if you find one that suits your needs it could be great.  I would however be leery of the one you have your eye on based on the information you provided. 

[Shadrach]

Bonal,

I'm not sure if your referring to my comment or not. I never told anyone not to buy a C. I was simply stating my opinion that a similar airplane with true 4 place capability on the same fuel burn gives you wider market. Shoppers looking for an F or J aren't likely to be in the market for a C or an E market as an alternative although there might be few. On the other hand, C or E shoppers might consider an F or J if the price and condition makes sense.

[DXB]

6 months after buying my M20C as a total noob, I still haven't broken the neurotic habit of looking at Controller/Trade-a-plane/Barnstormer for C models about once a week.  It's striking to me how stagnant the market is for this particular plane.  Maybe the good ones get snapped up quickly somewhere other than these sites, but rarely do I see a new one come up, and most of the ones there have been listed for an eternity at prices that look reasonable at first pass. But my well-known MSC prebuy mechanic lamented rarely seeing any good M20Cs come through his shop for prebuy any more, making me think most of these are either junk or quite expensive to get in shape. In addition, traveling and finding help to evaluate most of these planes is a time-consuming and very costly task for a typical buyer like me or the OP. I think what's most important is buying a carefully inspected airframe free of all corrosion, as good an engine as you can get, and a plane that is otherwise an absolute known entity regarding other issues, with appropriate price allowances for the type of problems like the OP mentions.  Waiting for the perfect one is futile. Having said that, the more expensive the C model, the better the value, assuming it actually merits the price.   

[bonal]

Shad (you don't mind if I shorten your name) you can shorten mine but then that would make me BO and we all know what that means.  I don't think it was your comment and I don't feel like re reading them.  I think we can all agree that the used older airplane market is a buyers market at this time for most types.  But for someone like me who does not want to incur debt for a hobby my choices are a used up 172 an OK Cherokee 160 or 180 or a Grumman Traveler or Cheetah or a MOONEY C  what would you pick.  And yes DXB there are nice C's out there (mine for one) they just aren't for sale cause their owners love them.

[gsxrpilot]

I've owned my C for 14 months. Just the other day I got a message from the previous owner asking if I was happy with it and if I ever wanted to sell it, to call him first.

It's not for sale.