Proper pattern etiquette question?

[N201MKTurbo]

I find it much better to practice at night. During the day, even with a hood on, the visual clues from the sunlight and shadows give you much more information then you realize.

Also at night you will rarely have the traffic conflicts you are talking about. It is just more bang for the buck.

As far as who is wrong and who is right, does it really meter? If you are doing approach practice at a busy VFR airport, somebody is going to get upset. I'de rather be safe then right.

[midlifeflyer]

Yes this is is relevant, but then it isn't ... To me ... That refers to VFR straight in ... Not an instrument approach straight in. Maybe I should read up? There is no distinguishing between the two?

 

Is the quote I posted earlier from the FAA Order regarding air traffic control relevant to you?

 

==============================

It is solely the pilot's prerogative to cancel an IFR flight plan. However, a pilot's retention of an IFR flight plan does not afford priority over VFR aircraft. For example, this does not preclude the requirement for the pilot of an arriving IFR aircraft to adjust his/her flight path, as necessary, to enter a traffic pattern in sequence with arriving VFR aircraft.

============================== 

 

No, there is no distinguishing between the two. Do you recall anything to that effect in your primary training? That's where "you have the obligation to give way to IFR aircraft in VFR conditions" would be taught. Do you see an IFR priority in 91.113 or anywhere else in =any= FAA publication, "regulatory" or not?

 

My best bet is the "right of way for IFR aircraft in VFR conditions" is something (some) instrument pilots made up, most likely to justify their disdain of "lesser" pilots.

[Mooneymite]

Yes this is is relevant, but then it isn't ... To me ... That refers to VFR straight in ... Not an instrument approach straight in. Maybe I should read up? There is no distinguishing between the two?

Violated for arriving straight in? 

 

Oh, yes!  Not that rare.

 

Mr. Airline Pilot figures HE has the right of way since, 1.  He's bigger/faster.  2.  He's IFR.  3.  He's got a lot more hours than the bug smasher pilots.

 

Unfortunately, the FAR's do not (necessarily) give him the right of way and there are a ton of examples where the airline pilot ended up with a violation in exactly this situation.  Usually some "petty bureaucrat" bug smasher pilot who happens to know the rules, sticks it to him.

 

Once the IFR arrival enters into the visual traffic pattern, his IFR clearance doesn't mean squat.  While the "cleared a visual" is part of his instrument clearance, it does not trump the traffic operating VFR established in the pattern.  As a matter of fact, the IFR clearance doesn't trump anything in the VFR environment.

 

None of the above is meant to suggest that the petty bureaucrat is making the pattern safer.  He isn't.  Don't get me started on how much I hate the local "pattern policemen"!

[201er]

Let's not forget the accident between a Mooney and a Cessna in a very similar situation:

 

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20001212X18764&key=1

 

Just cause radio calls are made does not mean people know where they are or what they are doing. Sometimes airplanes are on the wrong frequency or landing at the wrong airport (hey, even the Boeing DreamLifter makes that mistake sometimes). So ultimately only see and avoid can save your bacon.

[bonal]

What always amazes me is some of the position reports made that are no where near where they think they are. If memory serve and it usually doesn't when entering the area at the same time the aircraft that is lower is given the right of way. As for uncontrolled airspace it's about courtesy and common sence. It should not be hard to work out a safe order if everyone uses their head.

[Hank]

Indeed! I was inbound to land on the short runway, 11, which was closer to the wind, and Golden Eagle XXX called also inbound for 36. I was heading pretty much East, he was coming in from NW. When I called five miles out to the west, he made another call from the NW, then asked my altitude. Apparently being much closer, I was also much lower, as he never mentioned it again. I crossed 36 to enter pattern for 11, and saw him entering downwind to the west as I was on base. My runway has no taxiway, so I called back taxi and watched him roll out.

I even stopped short so that he could turn onto 11 to reach the taxiway, and told him I was waiting. He rolled to the end and took the taxiway instead, so I crossed the taxiway and 18-36 behind him, turned around and departed after he crossed 11 on the taxiway.

Common sense, courtesy and communication. I doubt my presence affected his time by 2 minutes, and we both landed smoothly with great disparity in speed. His plane sure looked nice! But I'd much rather fill mine up. Different strokes and all that.

Fly safe, eyes open and stay alert. Without a tower to assign things, it's up to us to sequence ourselves and make things work.

[Marauder]

What a timely thread. Just finished up another IPC this afternoon. The winds were really calm but occasionally favored landing east. So... I'm up at this uncontrolled airport, there is a guy coming in on the ILS for the west runway to land and I am flying the LNAV for the same runway towards the east.

The two of us on the approaches are talking because my missed is a route to his FAF. We are sharing altitudes reports, when a Cherokee gets on the west runway and announces his intention to depart with me on a mile final. He sees me coming in and decides to announce he will wait for me to begin the miss.

The guy on the ILS is 2 miles out and I am sure wondering if the Cherokee will get off before his arrival. I do the missed approach early and moved to the right of the missed approach route. It all worked out but this is the kind off stuff you see on nice days.

BTW -- regarding whether or not being on an IFR plan means anything. I don't believe so. I had no clue if this guy flying an approach was IFR or not. I also think it is important to call out distances. There are a lot of VFR only guys out there who have no clue where a fix is.

[Mooneymite]

Not saying anyone is above the FARs. Put your soapbox away. Scheeeeshhhh!,,, No disdain of "lesser pilots" ... No supreme attitude. I did not say anything about bigger, faster, more hours? Get off it!

 

 

Ha!  I wasn't talking about you.  I was talking about me.....back in the day.  

 

There's plenty of room to laugh at ourselves.

 

Doesn't cost a thing.

[Cruiser]

All in all, everyone of these comments contain good advise.

 

My experience flying from an uncontrolled airport for many years is ........ Keep a sharp lookout!

 

The biggest issue practicing IFR approaches is that to be legal, you must approach to minimums. That puts you very close and very low. Getting there straight in with others in the pattern takes some communication. 

My rule is if the safety pilot does not have a verified visual on the pattern traffic and the pattern traffic has not acknowledged my position, I will abort the approach at three miles.

1. that gives me room to maneuver to pattern flow 

2. it reduces the stress level on the pattern traffic

3. It is also a good idea to light yourself up like an airliner anywhere near an airport.

 

Just my ideas, YMMV.

[flyboy0681]

 

... Am I unreasonable in thinking that the guy cutting in front of my approach was rude? Or was "I" being rude by practicing an approach where a couple of planes were already in the pattern?

 

 

 

 

This happened to me a few weeks ago flying into Venice Florida, and man was I pissed. I made the procedure turn and was flying the LPV approach (while announcing every move along the way) when my check pilot friend told me that a 172 was making his base turn in front of us and that I needed to break it off. Nothing is more frustrating than having the needles perfectly centered and then having to take off the hood because some ahole thinks he takes precedence.

[bonal]

Since com is not required in uncontrolled space I always verify that the other traffic can read and that they understand my position and I theirs. Some one might not know you are approaching the field when he turns to base doing what is correct. It may upset you but it doesn't make them an a hole they are just doing what they are supposed to and I'm sure if you were to request an extended down wind they would comply but again that only works if people communicate and work together.

[carusoam]

"etiquette" would imply the other folks were knowledgable of what the situation is...

Home drome is an uncontrolled VFR paradise...

Many VFR pilots at uncontrolled fields don't know anything about an IFR approach, even what or where the FAF is...

Straight in approaches are not expected by them. Etiquette would be to join the pattern...45° down wind..

They may know where they are, but cannot fathom a different traffic pattern than the one they are flying. We also have right hand helicopter patterns for training. And some straight-in helicopters

If the ceiling is 700', expect somebody to be flying a low traffic pattern. Making mistakes about cloud clearance as they go...

Fortunately the IFR pilot is more aware of what everyone else is doing...

On weekends there will be three planes in the pattern working on separation...

Flying an approach straight into the traffic pattern, here, is more dangerous than the value gained.

People in-the-know, here, typically run through the approach and break it off prior to the traffic pattern.

Pick a windy day, the approach is all yours...

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

This happened to me a few weeks ago flying into Venice Florida, and man was I pissed. I made the procedure turn and was flying the LPV approach (while announcing every move along the way) when my check pilot friend told me that a 172 was making his base turn in front of us and that I needed to break it off. Nothing is more frustrating than having the needles perfectly centered and then having to take off the hood because some ahole thinks he takes precedence.

Two simple questions:

1- were your reports phrased for a non-instrument pilot to understand?

2- what makes you think you had precedence over the a-hole in the pattern? FARs give right of way to whoever is lower; his turn to base was likely around 700 agl, how high and far out were you?

[flyboy0681]

Two simple questions:

1- were your reports phrased for a non-instrument pilot to understand?

2- what makes you think you had precedence over the a-hole in the pattern? FARs give right of way to whoever is lower; his turn to base was likely around 700 agl, how high and far out were you?

 

1. Knowing full well that it's a busy VFR airport, the position reports were given at each mile inside the five mile line.

 

2. We were coming up on the DA so we must have been around 500 to 600 feet.

[cliffy]

Just a question-to the OP- did the other guy ever speak directly to you? If he didn't he may have never heard you even though he was transmitting(volume down etc).

Out here we have a non-towered airport in the middle of no where. We will have a G5 on a downwind 5 miles away from the airport, a J3 on downwind 1/2 mile from the airport. 6 or 7 C207 tour aircraft lined up on a 45 (all for rwy 33)and a commuter B99 doing a straight in (VOR APP ) to runway 15 opposite way. I've seen it happen. Even get NORDO planes in herein the summer.

YA gotta keep your eyes open.

I got another question but I'll start a new post.

[ArtVandelay]

Also, here in Florida we get a lot of cross traffic from other airports, adds to the confusion

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bob - S50]

I'm just looking for a few opinions on what is proper etiquette when flying practice IFR approaches at an uncontrolled airport. Here's the situation:

 

While prepping for an upcoming Instrument Checkride three weeks away I was practicing a procedure turn and ILS approach at a local airport. My safety pilot and I both had full ADS-B Traffic displayed and the safety pilot was obviously keeping a keen watch out the windows. I made frequent position reports over the radio starting about 10 miles out starting the procedure turn inbound. Calls were also made approaching the FAF and twice when on final. We were flying with the flow of traffic along with one departing aircraft and two in the pattern practicing VFR touch-and-goes.

 

Shortly after calling our 2 1/2 mile final @ 90 kts (low approach) one of the planes (C172) on downwind made a right turn to base (and called it out on the radio). I asked my safety pilot if he "had the airplane in sight" to  which he replied that he did and it appeared to be a conflict. At about the same time the other pattern traffic called out on the radio "does aircraft on final see that a plane has turned base in front of you?" (nice of him to make that call I believe).

 

I asked my safety to clear me for a left turn and then aborted the approach with a left turn out (right-had traffic on this runway). No big deal; no real danger, but...

 

... Am I unreasonable in thinking that the guy cutting in front of my approach was rude? Or was "I" being rude by practicing an approach where a couple of planes were already in the pattern?

 

I felt like the guy could have easily extended his downwind for another 1/2 mile and followed me in #2. I don't like getting in the way of others and had gladly aborted a previous approach to yield way for faster jet traffic coming up behind me on the same approach.

 

Thanks for any input.

 

Cnoe

 

And that is the main reason I prefer to fly my practice approaches at towered airports.  They will usually do a good job of spacing aircraft so you can complete your approach.

 

At uncontrolled airports you will usually find other reasonable pilots.  However, there are a lot of inexperienced, rude, or clueless pilots out there.  If one of them happens to be in the pattern when you arrive, it will be up to you to keep your separation.

 

Bob

[pinerunner]

I agree with the NTSB; it took two pilots in error to have this accident. Both assuming that since they had called it the airspace it was theirs and not paying enough attention out the window. Both with opportunities to see and avoid up to the point where they were established in each others blind spot. There's an automotive rule I've heard where the last one with an opportunity to avoid an accident is at fault. I can't decide which of these two had the last chance to avoid this accident. I find it hard to pin the fault (for all the good pinning fault ever did).

Let's not forget the accident between a Mooney and a Cessna in a very similar situation:

 

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20001212X18764&key=1

 

Just cause radio calls are made does not mean people know where they are or what they are doing. Sometimes airplanes are on the wrong frequency or landing at the wrong airport (hey, even the Boeing DreamLifter makes that mistake sometimes). So ultimately only see and avoid can save your bacon.

[flyboy0681]

I agree with the NTSB; it took two pilots in error to have this accident. Both assuming that since they had called it the airspace it was theirs and not paying enough attention out the window. Both with opportunities to see and avoid up to the point where they were established in each others blind spot. There's an automotive rule I've heard where the last one with an opportunity to avoid an accident is at fault. I can't decide which of these two had the last chance to avoid this accident. I find it hard to pin the fault (for all the good pinning fault ever did).

 

 

In my case my check pilot definitely saw him and we avoided (even though it wasn't even close). He was broadcasting his intentions and the only thing I can assume is that he thought he could get in by the time we arrived.

[cnoe]

Just a question-to the OP- did the other guy ever speak directly to you? If he didn't he may have never heard you even though he was transmitting(volume down etc).

Out here we have a non-towered airport in the middle of no where. We will have a G5 on a downwind 5 miles away from the airport, a J3 on downwind 1/2 mile from the airport. 6 or 7 C207 tour aircraft lined up on a 45 (all for rwy 33)and a commuter B99 doing a straight in (VOR APP ) to runway 15 opposite way. I've seen it happen. Even get NORDO planes in herein the summer.

YA gotta keep your eyes open.

I got another question but I'll start a new post.

 

The discussions following my original post have been great.

 

In answer to Cliffy's question about whether the C172 ever communicated directly with me the answer is "no". Politely asking him to extend his downwind would have likely been my best option but I simply didn't expect him to make the right turn in front of me. There were four of us making calls during my approach: one departing in front of me, my calls stating "distance, direction, and altitude", and the two planes doing pattern work. I had heard the C172 call downwind when I was well inside the FAF and was certainly looking out for him. My best guess is that he was either a solo student pilot or perhaps a new pilot practicing in the pattern. I do remember myself a few years ago when my knowledge of IFR operations was minimal.

 

I agree that generally straight-in approaches while VFR at an active airport aren't the best approach, but there's really no other way to practice an ILS around here. I almost never do this work on weekends to avoid the congestion (like yesterday when I witnessed 4 planes all headed to the IAF around the same time).

 

Anyway, I'm not mad about it but neither did I think that I was being a dick.

 

Cnoe

 

P.S. My pet peeve is the guy I crossed path with 2 weeks ago in a PA28 or similar at 2,000 AGL coming in off the Gulf of Mexico just 12 miles south of the mode-C veil with his transponder turned off. I'm pretty sure he was crossing the ADIZ while trying to avoid detection. ATC called him out to me as a traffic advisory about the same time I saw him a mile out on my left as I was sight-seeing along the coastline. I told ATC that he wasn't displayed on my ADS-B traffic and asked if he was on "primary or secondary" radar. The controller confirmed him as a primary target only. I expect the Cubs etc. over land with no transponders, but this one was a bit odd coming in off the water. Maybe a smuggler?

[midlifeflyer]

Not saying anyone is above the FARs. Put your soapbox away. Scheeeeshhhh!,,, No disdain of "lesser pilots" ... No supreme attitude. I did not say anything about bigger, faster, more hours? Get off it!

 

I don't have a sopabox on the issue and I always recommend giving up the technical ROW for safety reasons. Just pointing out what the ROW rule is and suggesting a source for the common misconception that somehow IFR traffic has ROW priority under VFR conditions. 

[slowflyin]

+1 for plain position reports.  5 mile 2.5 mile........

[chrisk]

I had a similar experience this weekend at 11R, except I was the VFR guy.  I'm down wind, about ready to turn base on a tight pattern (Think engine out tight).   The IFR pilot who has been announcing since 15 miles out, calls a 2 mile final.  I've been looking for him. I see nothing.  I look where 2 miles should be.  I still see nothing.  My passenger is looking too and sees nothing.   I turn base and announce.  Then on to final.  I land, roll out, turn on to a taxi way, and look back.  The other pilot is on a 1 mile final! --He had to be 5+ miles out when he called a 2 mile final.   In my opinion, the IFR pilot should have entered the pattern upwind.  He also should have been accurate in his position reports.  And it would have been nice if he gave some indication that he had a visual contact with my plane.

 

With that said, I've been to plenty of uncontrolled fields where 3 or 4 planes show up at the same time.  Most give reasonably good position reports (distance and or land marks), confirm visual contact with other planes, and announce intentions.

[Cruiser]

My experience with traffic position calls in the pattern can mean anywhere in the sky. Although I would expect better from an IFR pilot, what people seem to think as "midfield downwind, or "base to final" is very broad in interpretation of their actual position.  

[cnoe]

I had a similar experience this weekend at 11R, except I was the VFR guy.  I'm down wind, about ready to turn base on a tight pattern (Think engine out tight).   The IFR pilot who has been announcing since 15 miles out, calls a 2 mile final.  I've been looking for him. I see nothing.  I look where 2 miles should be.  I still see nothing.  My passenger is looking too and sees nothing.   I turn base and announce.  Then on to final.  I land, roll out, turn on to a taxi way, and look back.  The other pilot is on a 1 mile final! --He had to be 5+ miles out when he called a 2 mile final.   In my opinion, the IFR pilot should have entered the pattern upwind.  He also should have been accurate in his position reports.  And it would have been nice if he gave some indication that he had a visual contact with my plane.

 

With that said, I've been to plenty of uncontrolled fields where 3 or 4 planes show up at the same time.  Most give reasonably good position reports (distance and or land marks), confirm visual contact with other planes, and announce intentions.

 

I appreciate the alternate viewpoint chrisk, and I also think that straight-in VFR approaches are "sometimes" rude. I have a question for you though...

 

Did your described experience happen on Sunday by any chance? The winds in the area of Brenham (11R) were very strong with wind aloft at 1,000' around 35 kts. On a practice approach at Eagle Lake my groundspeed was down below 70 kts and it seemed to take FOREVER to get from the FAF to the runway. I agree that position calls are frequently way off the mark, but it's possible that the guy was closer than you thought. The one thing I've learned from having full-time traffic on the iPad is that a plane can be only 2 miles away and still very difficult to spot. At 4 miles distant it's nearly impossible to see them in many cases.

 

Now with that being said, there are multiple places to practice RNAV Approaches (like those at Brenham) so I prefer to stay away from active airports for that. As busy as the cafe is there on the weekends I wouldn't go there to shoot approaches.  But there are very few places to work on an ILS so you pretty much have to go where they're available.

 

Cnoe