TBM 700 Unrensposive

[ArtVandelay]

Someday I like to go to Oklahoma and take the free high altitude training class.

[Houman]

I know we shouldn’t rely too much on the average news reporter on these kind of stories, but I was listening to CNN and Miles O'Brian who is not a no-body in these subjects and he had a good point.

 

As we know most often, it is a sequence of events that lead to an aviation accident, not just one singular thing. If the pilot had declared an emergency, but furthermore as he was making the case, it seems also that there was some non-chalant (my opinion) work from the ATC. Pilot had said 3 times he had a problem and needed to go lower. I think the ATC guy should have been more inquisitive.

 

Now I know hindsight is 20/20, but still, I would imagine in their training, pilots that high who say we have a problem and need to go lower should right away make ATC think of O2 problems as at least a strong possibility on the top of the list of potential reason for that request.

 

It is a tragedy that might have been avoided if either pilot or ATC would have done a bit more...

Condolences to his family.

[Piloto]

As per ABC recorded ATC conversation the TBM pilot requested lower due instrument indication (no type of indication said). Assuming that he saw cabin pressure decreasing wouldn't he had put on the O2 mask and start a descent? The Air Force pilot does not mention the TBM pilot wearing the O2 mask even thought it would have been difficult for him to see it. In a cabin pressure loss you do not wait for ATC clearance you just descent, because by the time clearance is given you are unconscious.

 

José 

[ArtVandelay]

Unless it was a slow loss of cabin pressure, and he was already had symptoms, and/or was confused by the indication(s). It was a new plane, maybe the O2 tank hadn't been filled.

It also doesn't make sense he didn't requested 10000, he just for lower. 

[FlyDave]

As per ABC recorded ATC conversation the TBM pilot requested lower due instrument indication (no type of indication said). Assuming that he saw cabin pressure decreasing wouldn't he had put on the O2 mask and start a descent? The Air Force pilot does not mention the TBM pilot wearing the O2 mask even thought it would have been difficult for him to see it. In a cabin pressure loss you do not wait for ATC clearance you just descent, because by the time clearance is given you are unconscious.

 

José 

This is exactly what I was thinking as I read this string.

If I thought I had a pressurization problem at 25,000', I'd put the mask on first, take a minute or so to assess the situation and act - quickly!  I wouldn't have a problem declaring an emergency if I thought one existed. And if I declared an emergency I'd TELL the controller what I was doing and answer questions on the ground later.

I have flown my Bravo at FL210 and if I determined I had an o2 problem at that altitude I would declare an emergency and start down immediately before receiving a clearance to do so. I'm going to start carrying a portable o2 bottle that is easily accessible for just such an emergency.

[aviatoreb]

 

I have flown my Bravo at FL210 and if I determined I had an o2 problem at that altitude I would declare an emergency and start down immediately before receiving a clearance to do so. I'm going to start carrying a portable o2 bottle that is easily accessible for just such an emergency.

 

I keep one of these at my side in easy reach - with the mask on and just a single twist and apply from my right hand - just in case as my secondary backup O2 source.

 

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pspages/handheldoxygen.php?clickkey=4346

 

But also I mostly stay in the upper teens and no more unless I have a really good reason.

 

In my experience ATC has been helpful.  About a year ago I was at FL17 and my O2 started beeping at me - I use the O2D2 and if it is unhappy with the O2 source it beeps.  I was still getting O2 but the indication was something was wrong - so I told ATC my o2 is screwy and I need to descend now for a malfunction of o2- forcefully so they gave me immediate descent.   At around 11k they asked if I was ok - affirmative.  They didn't hesitate to let me down and I didn't declare an emergency since they let me down asap.  On debugging once I didn't need to breath the O2 I later learned that the O2D2 beeps at you if the pressure from the tank is below some threshold that is still showing about 1/4 in the tank by pressure reading. I had not anticipate that.  Nonetheless - I always refill my tanks so as to not allow them below 1/4.

 

One other time I requested immediate descent is I hit some summer time ice unexpected and unpredicted - again at FL17 over lake Huron.  I requested immediate descent for ice.  They complied immediately.  That was not an emergency since it was slow and I had warm below me and a deice kit.

[Andy95W]

There seems to be a point where pilots with lots of hours become over confident or complacent.

Second guessing a pilot with 5000 hours of high altitude experience is misguided and shows an utter lack of understanding of the insidious nature of hypoxia.

It is not as simple as saying, "I would have declared an emergency" or "I would have descended to 10,000 feet".

Hypoxia limits your ability to think clearly. Worse still, one of the symptoms of hypoxia is a sense of euphoria, ie., that there is nothing wrong.

I commend the pilot for recognizing something was wrong and forming in his oxygen-deprived brain the idea that he had to descend. I find it unfortunate and sad, but understandable, that he was unable to get his brain to act upon that idea.

BTW, this is not uncommon; remember Payne Stewart from 1999?

[chrisk]

This is very sad. 

[cliffy]

I've had 3 RDs (rapid decompressions) in my career. In all 3 I told ATC what I had and that I was vacating my altitude for 12000'

Decompressions get my attention like right now. Use the "E" word, it's no big deal. Only some paper work if they ask for it.

That's why an O2 meter is very valuable in Mooneys as hypoxia is insidious and can sneak up on you and you will never know it happened.

I won't fly above 16000' without one even with  a good O2 system in a non-pressurized airplane. Have been through the chamber, what an education. 

I am so sorry to hear that this has happened to an otherwise very competent pilot. I would have liked to have flown with him in that airplane. 

[Joe Zuffoletto]

I don't know what to say about this terrible month for GA except that I'm heartbroken.

Heartbroken that an experienced Cirrus pilot apparently succumbed to hypoxia and crashed into the Atlantic Ocean.

Heartbroken that an experienced Malibu pilot and his extended family met their demise at his home airport here in my home state of Colorado.

Heartbroken that the president of the TBM Owners and Pilots Association apparently succumbed to hypoxia, and now he and his wife lie on the floor of the Caribbean Sea.

I'm just numb right now. And heartbroken.

[adrian]

Where was the emergency O2 backup?!  Clearly he was not instantly incapacitated.  Does that airplane have some kind of ceiling quick access o2?

There are quick donning oxygen masks in the cabin walls just behind the crew seats. In order for them to work the supply from the cylinder needs to be turned on (there is an annunciation if it is off), the cylinder has to contain sufficient oxygen, and the "oxygen" switch in the overhead panel needs to be turned on (a checklist item before engine start, or before takeoff). After donning the mask, the "micro/mask" switch needs to be set to "mask" to enable communications.

It is possible to imagine a pilot who was already hypoxic making a mistake, or failing to notice that his oxygen supply was not turned on. Confusion happens quickly at high altitude, especially when the cabin altitude has already been high for some time.

A very sad accident.

[FlyDave]

There are quick donning oxygen masks in the cabin walls just behind the crew seats. In order for them to work the supply from the cylinder needs to be turned on (there is an annunciation if it is off), the cylinder has to contain sufficient oxygen, and the "oxygen" switch in the overhead panel needs to be turned on (a checklist item before engine start, or before takeoff). After donning the mask, the "micro/mask" switch needs to be set to "mask" to enable communications.

It is possible to imagine a pilot who was already hypoxic making a mistake, or failing to notice that his oxygen supply was not turned on. Confusion happens quickly at high altitude, especially when the cabin altitude has already been high for some time.

A very sad accident.

 

In a modern plane like the TBM900, is there no audible annunciator in case of low cabin pressure?

[aviatoreb]

There are quick donning oxygen masks in the cabin walls just behind the crew seats. In order for them to work the supply from the cylinder needs to be turned on (there is an annunciation if it is off), the cylinder has to contain sufficient oxygen, and the "oxygen" switch in the overhead panel needs to be turned on (a checklist item before engine start, or before takeoff). After donning the mask, the "micro/mask" switch needs to be set to "mask" to enable communications.

It is possible to imagine a pilot who was already hypoxic making a mistake, or failing to notice that his oxygen supply was not turned on. Confusion happens quickly at high altitude, especially when the cabin altitude has already been high for some time.

A very sad accident.

 

Something clearly didn't work - besides the seeming infant mortality of the pressurization system in this brand new airplane.  Something didn't work in the backup system.  Given such a highly trained 5000 hr in type individual, and a person who is even the president of the type association (the tbm association) I think it is safe to presume that he is trained in this aircraft as well as anyone.  So what I am saying is this is a real stand up and take notice accident because it is a clear message that this could happen to anyone.  

 

Not to mention it is especially spooky since "common" wisdom suggests that a new - and systems capable - airplane like this would be less prone to such a fatal equipment failure as those of us driving older than that airplanes who can only aspire to something new like that are even more on warning.

 

We might say that "he should have declared an emergency and descended" asap and clearly that was the response that would have saved his life, but given that he did not and his level of training, I take this as the clear indication of the insidious nature of hypoxic euphoria - he was already drawn part way into the woods by the willow the wisp by the time we hear the not so demanding request to descend and then not much more.

[adrian]

There would be a red "Cabin Altitude" message on the MFD, and the red Master Warning light would flash which should be fairly unmissable.  The master warning also sounds a chime through the pilot's headset.  A trained and experienced pilot should be able to take the necessary emergency actions very easily - but if for some reason he took the wrong action he would have very little time to correct his mistake before becoming incapable of helping himself.

[Mooneymite]

Second guessing a pilot with 5000 hours of high altitude experience is misguided and shows an utter lack of understanding of the insidious nature of hypoxia.

It is not as simple as saying, "I would have declared an emergency" or "I would have descended to 10,000 feet".

Hypoxia limits your ability to think clearly. Worse still, one of the symptoms of hypoxia is a sense of euphoria, ie., that there is nothing wrong.

I commend the pilot for recognizing something was wrong and forming in his oxygen-deprived brain the idea that he had to descend. I find it unfortunate and sad, but understandable, that he was unable to get his brain to act upon that idea.

BTW, this is not uncommon; remember Payne Stewart from 1999?

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! Thank you.

All this chest beating about "he should have done this, or that", or "I would have done such", ignores the basic problem of hypoxia: you lose crainial computing power. Hypoxia can make a razor sharp military pilot into an idiot very quickly and he's the last person in the altitude chamber to realize it!

Obviously something went wrong, but if this is a case of hypoxia, the pilot needed an oxygenated brain to handle it properly. This pilot was no neophyte.

[fantom]

When you remove your mask in the altitude chamber, you get silly stupid in a matter of seconds. A major reason for this exercise is to recognize your unique reaction to immediate hypoxia.

Very sad loss. Flying is neither for the timid nor for those who demand a simple gizmo to guarantee they will never fall victim to stuff going wrong. Stuff happens.

Know your systems, practice regularity, understand the risks and fly safe out there.

[Marauder]

And another point about hypoxia, you can get some slight impairment even at lower altitudes. A lot depends on your body's ability to absorb O2. There is a reason you end up with a dull headache after a flight or have to ask Center to repeat a freq. It's not just a tight headset and you being tired. After I bought an oxyimeter, I began to recognize the correlations between the "minor" O2 deprivation and true altitude hypoxia. I carry a bottle of O2 now all the time. My wife in particular has commented that she longer gets the headaches (other than the one she gets from being married to me).

[WardHolbrook]

Spending some quality time in one of the altitude chambers is a good thing if you're going to be playing around above 10,000 feet. Those courses don't cost much and some are even free. Pulse oximeters are cheap as are small emergency backup O2 bottles. The tools necessary to "see and avoid" hypoxia are readily available. The hazards of flight in the lower flight levels need to be taken seriously.

 

Most government/military chamber training is provided at little or no cost, but you do have to get there and have a place to stay while you're there. Plan ahead, buy your airline tickets early and get a room at Motel 6 for a night or two. We all respond differently to the effects of altitude. The training you will get in one of these courses will leave you with no doubt as to your personal symptoms and how you react. (And the videos are quite funny and sobering.) It's some of the best training you will ever get.

Here's a link to the FAA website: http://www.faa.gov/pilots/training/a...ce_physiology/

[BorealOne]

This is worth a view - demonstrates symptoms and recovery well.

 

[Piloto]

Another scenario is that the TBM pilot put on the O2 mask and felt confident he could handle the flight at FL 180. But there was no O2 flow to the mask. The O2 valve knob may had just slipped on the shaft. The tank pressure was right but the valve never opened. How would you know if you are getting O2 in the above scenario? My cannulas have the flow ball meter but I do not think the TBM O2 masks have it.

 

José

[ArtVandelay]

Sign up for the FAA's Wings program and configure your account properly and you'll receive a notification via email if one is being offered in your area.

Jim

Can you elaborate about configuring your account?

[aviatoreb]

Another scenario is that the TBM pilot put on the O2 mask and felt confident he could handle the flight at FL 180. But there was no O2 flow to the mask. The O2 valve knob may had just slipped on the shaft. The tank pressure was right but the valve never opened. How would you know if you are getting O2 in the above scenario? My cannulas have the flow ball meter but I do not think the TBM O2 masks have it.

 

José

 

That is quite a plausible scenario Jose.  I cannot think of any other reason why a decent to only FL18 would be requested.

 

I really like the O2D2 pulse delivery for several reasons - one of which is you know when you are getting O2 every single breath.  Esp with the mask.  With the mask with a Mic when you suck air it makes a Darth Vadar like sound as it pulses air into your mask and mic.  With the cannula you can physically feel the pulse of air being pumped into your air during each puff.

[Cris]

Last year I spent 5 hrs at 11000' on a trip from Gulfport Ms. To Atlantic City. I then made an ILS approach with a ceiling of 600'. My normal procedure is to fly all approaches by hand. On this approach I kept finding myself pulling up above the glide slope as if I was flying the localizer in spite of the fact that I had glide slope. I kept thinking I was below the glide slope when in fact I was above it. I landed without issue but was confused by my actions. Why did I not follow the glide slope indicator? After thinking it through I realized that I was suffering from the effects of hypoxia as a result of being at 11k for five hours and then being given a rapid descent which did not allow me time to recover. As a result I immediately started using O2 and a pulse meter anytime I flew above 8K. 9k seems to be the new normal for when my O2 starts to drop off probably due to age. In April I flew to Oaklahoma City courtesy of the US Coast Guard Auxilliary for high altitude and disorientation training by the FAA. It was excellent and taught me that I have no obvious symptoms just a general decline in brain computing leading to confusion. Lesson here is get the pulse meter and find out where your personal level of O2 starts to drop and plan accordingly. You might be surprised as I was to learn how low it might be.

[Mooneymite]

.... and disorientation training by the FAA.....

 

Yeah, the FAA gets me disoriented all the time, too! 

[cliffy]

I know I'm going to get flamed for this but I think it's important enough to say it. 

 

For those of you who fly in the low 20s without pressurization, it's doubly important to PLAN on having an O2 failure and know what you are going to do because you have no "LOW CABIN PRESSURE"  light to warn you. If your O2 bottle system slowly fails it will sneak up on you and you won't know it. 

You are betting your life on your O2 system. I'm not saying not to do it. Just be real aware of the consequences and plan ahead.

Don't get caught by thinking "it'll never happen to me".  Complacency kills in airplanes. 

 

Here is what I sent to a young friend who is just starting out as a corporate pilot in an MU2. 

XXXXX,

I'm going to preach here so bear with me. 

In my career I've seen too many instances of pilots not "telling" ATC what they needed to do but just timidly asking to do something in a real emergency. It has cost them dearly. 

Here is a link to a current problem- 2 pressurization failures in 2 different airplanes recently that cost the lives of all on board. If you haven't heard of it or remember it,  Google up "Payne Stewart Learjet Crash". The same scenario. 

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/13023-tbm-700-unrensposive/

 

I have two issues here to pontificate on-

 

Hypoxia- You, I don't believe, have ever been through an altitude chamber ride to see how your body reacts to hypoxia. You need to do it. Until you experience it you really don't know how your body reacts to hypoxia. 

Hypoxia is insidious, it sneaks up on you, you feel like you are doing just fine and the next instant you are totally gone and don't even realize it happened, and now you can not do anything about it.  It will kill you and all who fly with you.

 

Serious Emergencies-   As can be seen in the TBM crash, the pilot knew he had a problem but didn't "fly the airplane first" he didn't TELL ATC what he was going to do  in a serious emergency. He was timid and it killed two people. I've have had 3 rapid decompressions in my career. 1 in the MU at 23000', 2 in jets up high. In all three as soon as I knew I saw a pressurization failure that could not be controlled I called ATC, declared an emergency and told them I was going down to 14000 (some training says to go to 10000' We can't do that out here in the west with the mountains. 14000 or 15000 gives you ground clearance and you can breathe there good enough for a few minutes to figure where you are and get lower)) I didn't ask for lower, I didn't ask "permission" to do something I just "did it" and at 4 to 6000' feet per minute. I wasted no time getting down. In the jets from up high as soon as a pressurization problem was noted the O2 mask went on. First item, no delay, get the F&^&)@#  mask on now. You can't do that in the MU as they are not quick donning masks like in jets. 

In the MU if you ever dump the pressurization (say a window breaks as it did with me in the MU, the window that is in the hangar) GET LOWER NOW AND THEN WORK OUT THE PROBLEM. Call ATC and YOU tell them what YOU are going to do and do it. NEVER ASK FOR PERMISSION IN A REAL EMERGENCY, JUST DECLARE AND DO WHAT YOU NEED TO DO. LET THEM SORT OUT THE TRAFFIC ISSUES. 

Don't delay getting down in the MU while you dick around with the stupid O2 masks in the MU. If you can't control the pressurization get your butt down. AT 25000' you have maybe 3 minutes of useful consciousness,(the charts say 3 to 5, don't count on 5 it'll kill you) it will take you 2-3 mins to get down to 14 or 15000' by the time you diagnose the issue and get down there. So don't delay by playing with the pressurization problem. If it's on both bleeds open and setting the controller to a way lower altitude doesn't stop the pressure loss, GET DOWN NOW. 

 

I'm off my soap box now. Hope you have a good day.

 

 

 

As I said above, any delay in getting down fast can and will kill you. Delaying by "asking for lower" etc only leaves you up there longer. Time that you don't have. I stand by what I said, "NEVER ASK FOR PERMISSION IN A REAL EMERGENCY, DECLARE THE EMERGENCY AND DO WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE. LET THEM SORT OUT THE TRAFFIC ISSUES" 

 

OK let the arrows fly. I can weave and duck. Just remember-

 

"You're not a safe pilot until you have been tempered and you're not tempered until you do something in an airplane that scares the living crap out of you and YOU know that YOU did it!"