starting instrument training.. need perf settings.

[Jamie]

I have a 1981 'J'. Can anyone recommend "IFR" rpm/mp settings? I barely know what to ask for... as I understand it, having a list of settings for climbs / descents / turns /etc is necessary and something usually developed in the first few lessons. My instructor doesn't have a lot of mooney time (satisfies my insurance and that's about it), so rough starting numbers would be helpful.

 

The only "numbers" I use now is "gear down, 2700rpm, 20" gives me a little over 100 KIAS. 

 

 

[chrisk]

You will find what you are looking for here:  http://72.10.105.106/tms/misc/MAPAMooneyManual.pdf    Chapter 8.  Basically, you will want RPM and manifold settings for decent on your approaches.

[RocketAviator]

Jamie, there are IFR by the numbers in a document online MAPA Mooney Manual.  I have the printed copy and found this (earlier version) online.  I found the number for the Rocket to be a great close starting point and only slightly modified a few to fit my specific preferences.  

I tried to attach this PDF to this post and also upload it.  If you PM your email address I will email you a copy of the PDF file.  I believe you will find IFR by the Numbers listed for your plane as a good starting point within this document as well.

Lacee

 

Looks like chrisk has the link for this document, this is a great tool even for if you are not pursuing your IFR.

 

Good luck,

Fly safe,

Lacee

[Danb]

I believe the numbers for different attitudes etc are int the mooney air safety training manual given ate the prof. Programs

[Danb]

The post above my last has a training like I mentioned

[Hank]

Can't say enough good things about attending a MAPA PPP as a new Mooney pilot. Went back last year for a refresher, to see what I had forgotten.

[Jamie]

Awesome. Thanks everyone. That mooney manual thing looks great... just started reading though. I did read the "example" of how a gear up bonanza caused the airport to be shut down. heh.

[Jamie]

There was just a thread on that ... I'll see if I can find it. (but only if you promise NEVER to post fat people pictures again!)

 

You post a few tasteful pictures of some large boned, heavy framed individuals with a genetic predisposition for aggressive food energy conversion and storage (totally not their fault) and everyone has a cow...

[Dave Marten]

Give a copy of the manual to your CFII and tell him to study up!

 

Build yourself and him a cue card so he can back you up. You, as the student, will be a little behind the airplane at times during training so your CFII better be able to stay on top of the training. Remember, you're the customer - if your CFII is not willing to study up on your make/model specifics you're wasting your money with him.

 

Don't need to be a Mooney expert to be a good instructor in a Mooney, just be willing to do your homework and show up ready to teach!

 

Good luck on the instrument rating!

[201er]

I have a 1981 'J'. Can anyone recommend "IFR" rpm/mp settings?

The same as for VFR

[Marauder]

I have a 1981 'J'. Can anyone recommend "IFR" rpm/mp settings? I barely know what to ask for... as I understand it, having a list of settings for climbs / descents / turns /etc is necessary and something usually developed in the first few lessons. My instructor doesn't have a lot of mooney time (satisfies my insurance and that's about it), so rough starting numbers would be helpful. The only "numbers" I use now is "gear down, 2700rpm, 20" gives me a little over 100 KIAS.

Jamie -- what ChrisK posted is a good starting point but I think you will find that your particular plane may like a power combination that is a little different than those recommended. The best way to determine these settings is to go fly a bunch of different profiles and see what works. My plane likes 2400 rpm (smoother) and a setting of 16/2400 with flaps at TO, gear up will give me 100 KIAS. I fly approaches at this speed unless I am going to a shorter runway and I may fly the approach at 90 by reducing the MP roughly 1 inch. As Mike (201er) mentioned they are probably the same as your VFR flying but most likely you don't have them nailed down because, if you were like me when I flew VFR only, I really didn't track what combination gave me what descent rate at what FPM at what power setting. The IR rating by far was the most fun. Have fun!

[midlifeflyer]

I'm actually quite surprised your instructor has not already discussed with you a flight in which you will take the time to develop those numbers yourself. To a lot of CFIIs, it is as important a component of the initial stages of instrument training as attitude flying itself. The exercise of developing those numbers reaps great benefits in learning about aircraft performance.

[John Pursell]

This was always the first lesson I gave my instrument students.

I'm actually quite surprised your instructor has not already discussed with you a flight in which you will take the time to develop those numbers yourself. To a lot of CFIIs, it is as important a component of the initial stages of instrument training as attitude flying itself. The exercise of developing those numbers reaps great benefits in learning about aircraft performance.

[midlifeflyer]

This was always the first lesson I gave my instrument students.

Although not as extensive, it's also part of the first lesion I give VFR students who are transitioning to complex or high performance aircraft. Even in as something as slow and dirty as a Cutlas or Arrow, I'm not sure how one stays ahead of the airplane when descending to mix into a busy traffic pattern without a basic understanding of the configurations that will get you there before the airplane does with a minimum of workload.

[rbridges]

I have a C model, but 19" with gear down keeps me level.  I use 17" with gear up while intercepting waypoints in the approach.  It keeps me level and at a reasonable speed.

 

Having a bigger plane and stronger engine, I'm sure these won't work for you, but it may get you in the ballpark.

[Jamie]

 As Mike (201er) mentioned they are probably the same as your VFR flying but most likely you don't have them nailed down because, if you were like me when I flew VFR only, I really didn't track what combination gave me what descent rate at what FPM at what power setting.

 

Yeah.. I totally do not care if I'm climbing or descending at a particular rate VFR. I have a couple of settings for downwind, and base/final, but that's it. I take off at full power, cruise climb at Carson speed (which is an IAS, not a mp/rpm), and descend as fast as I feel like with speed brakes. I suppose, like doing touch and goes, I'm not a "real pilot" because of that, but the amount I care about being a "real pilot" is hard to measure with current equipment.

[Jamie]

I'm actually quite surprised your instructor has not already discussed with you a flight in which you will take the time to develop those numbers yourself. To a lot of CFIIs, it is as important a component of the initial stages of instrument training as attitude flying itself. The exercise of developing those numbers reaps great benefits in learning about aircraft performance.

 

He might. First flight is tomorrow. But I know he doesn't have a lot of time in Mooneys (satisfies insurance, but that's about it), and I'm picky about how the engine is run, so I didn't want him figuring it out in my airplane.

[Marauder]

Yeah.. I totally do not care if I'm climbing or descending at a particular rate VFR. I have a couple of settings for downwind, and base/final, but that's it. I take off at full power, cruise climb at Carson speed (which is an IAS, not a mp/rpm), and descend as fast as I feel like with speed brakes. I suppose, like doing touch and goes, I'm not a "real pilot" because of that, but the amount I care about being a "real pilot" is hard to measure with current equipment.

 

Oh, you are a real pilot -- you got the certificate in your pocket to prove that. What you aren't yet is a precise pilot. -- at least not yet. I flew VFR only for a couple of years exactly like you are doing. What the fun part of the instrument rating is learning how to be precise in the power management and control of your airplane. Nothing like setting up on a stabilized approach and popping out of a cloud deck with the runway staring in you in the face.

[midlifeflyer]

He might. First flight is tomorrow. But I know he doesn't have a lot of time in Mooneys (satisfies insurance, but that's about it), and I'm picky about how the engine is run, so I didn't want him figuring it out in my airplane.

It should not be a big worry. He's not going to try to put the nose down and push the prop and throttle full forward until it redlined. The power settings and configurations for single engine complex aircraft are very close to each other. Anything he might reasonably try is going to be very close if he has any experience with multiple types. The biggest variables are going to be personal preference ones like whether to fly the approach with or without flaps or whether to descend on the glide slope at 90 or 105 or...

My single biggest issue when I transitioned to a Mooney J was slowing down at DA for landing due to the extra aerodynamic slipperiness of the Mooney. That took a few extra practice approaches or to decide on the best and most efficient technique for me given my general preference for no-flap approaches.

[BigTex]

My single biggest issue when I transitioned to a Mooney J was slowing down at DA for landing due to the extra aerodynamic slipperiness of the Mooney. That took a few extra practice approaches or to decide on the best and most efficient technique for me given my general preference for no-flap approaches.

 

Just curious, do you land flaps up or reconfigure at DA?  Looking at what MAPA PPP recommends, they say to reconfigure when you break out.

[Hank]

I fly the approach with Approach flaps. Never heard of reconfiguring at breakout, unless something needs to change to make a good landing. But if I'm on glideslope, I don't need to change much. What's the reason to reconfigure?

[BigTex]

The MAPA PPP document states "To simplify the IFR missed approach, our ILS descent PAC does not call for the use of wing flaps until the runway is in sight and the decision to land is made.  When putting in full flaps, time to maintain the almost level pitch attitude, and the airplaine will slow to 70-75kts crossing the fence and settle at 500 fpm."

[Marauder]

I fly the approach with Approach flaps. Never heard of reconfiguring at breakout, unless something needs to change to make a good landing. But if I'm on glideslope, I don't need to change much. What's the reason to reconfigure?

Like Hank, I fly with 15 degrees of flaps on the approach. With the lower gear speed (104 knots) in my vintage Mooney, if I try to descend without flaps, I pick up way too much speed and would need to dump a lot of power to stay below VLe.

[midlifeflyer]

Just curious, do you land flaps up or reconfigure at DA?  Looking at what MAPA PPP recommends, they say to reconfigure when you break out.

I reconfigure. But the problem I came across was, on a precision approach to minimums, I didn't find that to be enough to prevent a longer landing than I like or a go-around due to being too hot. So I also reduce power about 200' above DA to slow down a bit more. It's a small enough configuration change and done high enough to not affect the quality or stability of the approach.

[201er]

I reconfigure. But the problem I came across was, on a precision approach to minimums, I didn't find that to be enough to prevent a longer landing than I like or a go-around due to being too hot. So I also reduce power about 200' above DA to slow down a bit more. It's a small enough configuration change and done high enough to not affect the quality or stability of the approach.

The good news (for us) is that runways that have 200' DAs are so long we could land many times over on them. Coming across the DA in a jet in anything but landing speed/configuration on the other hand!? Not much runway to go...