Flight following along complex route

[Shadrach]

 

 

 

Beware, ATC is not obligated to vector you or keep you out of airspace if you're VFR. They are only providing traffic advisories to you and keeping you away from IFR traffic. They can get busy and you can fly yourself right into a restricted zone or bravo airspace and it's your fault not theirs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

No they are not legally obligated, but will suggest headings (unless you're in control area then they are not "suggestions") for expedient transitions. Again it's an occasional crap shoot in terms of attitude. I had a Patuxant approach controller actually say "you do your job and I'll do my mine, that's what I'm here for" when I asked him about R-4002 after a northern departure from Tangier Island. 2 minutes later a Piper Tomahawk passed underneath us that was close enough for me to see it was a blonde female sitting left seat...he never said a word.  SO the truth his your responsible for yourself, but 99% of the time if a controller accepts the request, they will keep you out of trouble. Just be prepared for the 1%...Trust but verify! I have been forgotten by Washington center twice. Once actually prompted me to call the following day. Tapes were reviewed and apology issued...

[midlifeflyer]

I'm not aware of a difference between "radar advisories" and "flight following."  

 

That's because there isn't any. Guess what it says under the "Flight Following" listing in the Pilot/Controller Glossary.

[mike_elliott]

Beware, ATC is not obligated to vector you or keep you out of airspace if you're VFR. They are only providing traffic advisories to you and keeping you away from IFR traffic. They can get busy and you can fly yourself right into a restricted zone or bravo airspace and it's your fault not theirs.

So very true, yet at the same time, I personally have not had a controller "let" me fly into a restricted, bravo etc. They will call it out if they accept the role of providing you radar services, or dump you if they are too busy to warn you.

I found that they don't like paperwork which might involve them, so it is easier for them to advise you that you might have some to fill out if you continue your present course

[kmyfm20s]

Flight following usually works well for me. But recently, I learned a new ATC trick. Flying out of KPLR, you leave BHM air space pretty quick. You also have a restricted area and no radar coverage below 6000' for a while. I usually file IFR. But on the last flight, I called BHM departure. Was told "VFR a/c calling BHM, stand by". He ignored my next two calls and then finally responded, saying I was out his area and radar coverage. Contact ATL on .... then I was left negotiating with ATL center who really doesn't have time to get flight following set-up. I was over Rome before I finally got a squawk code. I was miffed at the BHM guy but secretly impressed with how well he dissed me!

I found that requesting an IFR to VFR on top get me past those senerios. You do not have to pre-file and they can be requested directly from clearance delivery or ground. When canceling IFR they usually assume you want flight following but I always request it. In busy areas it gets you in the system on the ground before your in the air but sometime you will be waiting awhile for release on the run up area.

[chrisk]

I have noticed a very careful wording from ATC when getting vector advisories for traffic. They usually say something like, Traffic, 1:00, 5,000'. Mooney. "suggest 10 degrees left" for avoidance". They usually make a point of suggesting a heading for traffic, not assigning a heading. 

 

With flight following, you need to remain VFR.   If they assigned you a heading, you might end up in a cloud.

[midlifeflyer]

With flight following, you need to remain VFR.   If they assigned you a heading, you might end up in a cloud.

 

Sometimes they will assign a heading. It's up to us to remain outside of a cloud if VFR.

[Hank]

I have noticed a very careful wording from ATC when getting vector advisories for traffic. They usually say something like, Traffic, 1:00, 5,000'. Mooney. "suggest 10 degrees left" for avoidance". They usually make a point of suggesting a heading for traffic, not assigning a heading. 

 

This has rarely if ever happened to me. Normally I just get a traffice direction and distance, even when both of us report negative contact and are converging in the haze layer. That's when I push everything forward and report a 2000' climb. Sometimes I will get an altitude restriction ["maintain VFR above 5500 for traffic"] but almost never a suggested heading unless I ask for one.

[flyboy0681]

Two years ago I got my first ever (in 32 years of flying) "immediate left climbing turn" command.

[Shadrach]

I was asked to reduce speed 20KTS in cruise for the first time ever (it's happened many times in the airport environment) on my way back to KHGR from KRKD back in early August. I was at 4500 with a head wind making about 140KTS when Harrisburg asked me to slow for IFR traffic descending through 6000 same speed... It turned out to be a Bonanza descending into KCXY. He popped out about 1/2 mile in front of me and I was cleared to resume normal speed. It looked like an A36 from the side view.  An A36 descending at F model cruise speeds...he must have shock cooled all of the cylinders pulling the throttle so far back in descent.   

[laytonl]

n00b question.

 

I'm not instrument rated yet. I get flight following when I go somewhere, and so far that has been "direct". Like:

 

"Huntsville Clearance, Mooney 1138J, VFR direct FOO Foxtrot Oscar Oscar at 8500, request flight following."

 

The trip to Orlando will not be direct. I'd like to insert a few waypoints to take me around and between some of the airspace along the way. What's the best way to handle this and still get flight following?

One thing you can do is file an IFR flight plan with duats and put in a VFR altitude and in the remarks section say "VFR flight following." I've done this before and ATC knows who I am when I call. Lee

[carqwik]

Not sure what flight following has to do with a complicated route...either they give it to you or not...or some controlling agency refuses the hand-off from another and you're terminated if you had FF.  Frankly, not sure length or complication of route is a determining factor...more often has to do with the temperament of each controller along the way and how busy they are with IFR traffic.  Phoenix Tracon used to be notorious for not taking VFR handoffs from center...but go to SoCal and they do it all day long.

[gsengle]

My understanding is that "flight following" is just slang for "radar advisories" or just "advisories".  It is actually a pet peeve of mine, and never use the FF words.  (there is something called FF, but that is something entirely different, that is up in alaska or some such thing, I forget.  something about position reports)

 

The trick is whether the first controller puts you in the system or not, or if you have to keep telling em your intentions facility by facility.  I start with a call up like this.  "Washington Center, just off Salisbury, enroute Orlando, 33 for 55, via xxx and yyy requesting advisories".  (content of first transmission dependent on controller workload)  Then, if you suspect they haven't put you in the system, you can even ask them to - "Washington Center could you get me in the system full route?"  You'll know you're in the system if you can maintain the same squawk across facilities.

 

g

[N201MKTurbo]

My understanding is that once you "participate" by asking for vfr flight following, any instructions they give "maintain vfr at 4000" are not merely a suggestion but instructions that must be followed.

 

You can cancel flight following at any time an do whatever you want, just like canceling IFR. Even after being given an instruction as above. There has been quite a few times I've been IFR into the phoenix area and requested a lower altitude and was told to maintain my altitude (usually 11000 twenty miles out). I canceled and decended anyway. I was glad to be done with them and they were probably glad to be done with me.

 

As far as flight following, All I ever give them is my destination. If they care about your routing they will ask.

[midlifeflyer]

My understanding is that "flight following" is just slang for "radar advisories" or just "advisories".  It is actually a pet peeve of mine, and never use the FF words.  

 

Some of us are OK with terms the FAA uses; some of us have pet peeves against some of them.

[midlifeflyer]

You can cancel flight following at any time an do whatever you want, just like canceling IFR. Even after being given an instruction as above

 

You mean as in 

 

ATC: Maintain 3,000; fly heading 230

You: No. I won't. Cancel Flight Following. Goodbye.

 

?

 

No. You can't. Well, you can, but then you'd have the fun of facing enforcement action under 91.123(b ).

[gsengle]

Some of us are OK with terms the FAA uses; some of us have pet peeves against some of them.

 

I will admit to resisting "fife"...  But in general, I find professional phraseology especially in the northeast, where it can be hard to get from ATC what you want, increases the perception on the part of ATC that you will be highly compliant, and thus get you what you want.  Just sayin'

[midlifeflyer]

I will admit to resisting "fife"...  But in general, I find professional phraseology especially in the northeast, where it can be hard to get from ATC what you want, increases the perception on the part of ATC that you will be highly compliant, and thus get you what you want.  Just sayin'

 

Not just in the northeast. Using standard phraseology is always a good idea and in many cases can make the difference between getting services and not, especially when things are busy. At my old home base on a busy weekend, it could mean the difference between, "34X, make left downwind" and "aircraft calling, remain outside the Class Delta and call us back in 20 minutes."

[N201MKTurbo]

You mean as in 

 

ATC: Maintain 3,000; fly heading 230

You: No. I won't. Cancel Flight Following. Goodbye.

 

?

 

No. You can't. Well, you can, but then you'd have the fun of facing enforcement action under 91.123(b ).

 

Of course not.

 

you very politly say "N201MK canceling flight following"

 

They say "Flight following canceled, squak 1200 have a nice day"

 

I say "good day"

 

and then do what ever I want....

[PMcClure]

VFR "Flight Following" is mentioned several times in the AIM and is also referred to Traffic Advisories, Traffic Advisory Services, and a few other names.

 

I have never been denied VFR Flight following or "Advisories" except for on July 4th and once flying over TDG just as the race was letting out (lots of IFR departures). I have used terminology Flight Following in NYC, Boston, Atlanta and Memphis areas. 

 

I think the general idea is ATC wants to encourage VFR pilots to contact them and make it easy. 

[midlifeflyer]

Of course not.

 

you very politly say "N201MK canceling flight following"

 

They say "Flight following canceled, squak 1200 have a nice day"

 

I say "good day"

 

and then do what ever I want....

 

What if instead of "Flight following canceled"  they say, "For now, Maintain 3,000; fly heading 230."

 

I'm not asking about what you would do practically speaking. I'm reacting to what seems to be your suggestion that you don't have to accept their instructions if you cancel flight following. If  that's what you are saying, I disagree. If you are in communication with ATC and they give you and instruction, 91.123 says you have to comply unless it's an emergency or, I guess, if you are in Class G. 

[midlifeflyer]

VFR "Flight Following" is mentioned several times in the AIM and is also referred to Traffic Advisories, Traffic Advisory Services, and a few other names.

 

I have never been denied VFR Flight following or "Advisories" except for on July 4th and once flying over TDG just as the race was letting out (lots of IFR departures). I have used terminology Flight Following in NYC, Boston, Atlanta and Memphis areas. 

 

I think the general idea is ATC wants to encourage VFR pilots to contact them and make it easy. 

 

I've heard flight following refused a number of times in various parts of the country. The most surprising one was hearing  multiple aircraft calling Miami Center for flight following and receiving "unable flight following." 

[N201MKTurbo]

What if instead of "Flight following canceled"  they say, "For now, Maintain 3,000; fly heading 230."

 

I'm not asking about what you would do practically speaking. I'm reacting to what seems to be your suggestion that you don't have to accept their instructions if you cancel flight following. If  that's what you are saying, I disagree. If you are in communication with ATC and they give you and instruction, 91.123 says you have to comply unless it's an emergency or, I guess, if you are in Class G.

I have just passed 5100 hours of flying and the only time I have had ATC issue instructions to me while VFR is in class B airspace. All other times it was suggestions. I can't actually remember canceling radar service while VFR because I didn't like what they said. I have done it a few times while on an IFR flight plan and was always immediately released with "IFR cancelation received, radar service terminated" or "IFR cancelation received. Would you like flight following?" They always knew what my intentions were and never had a problem with it.

I just don't see your scenario happening.

[midlifeflyer]

I have just passed 5100 hours of flying and the only time I have had ATC issue instructions to me while VFR is in class B airspace. All other times it was suggestions. I can't actually remember canceling radar service while VFR because I didn't like what they said. I have done it a few times while on an IFR flight plan and was always immediately released with "IFR cancelation received, radar service terminated" or "IFR cancelation received. Would you like flight following?" They always knew what my intentions were and never had a problem with it.

I just don't see your scenario happening.

Sorry. I was just responding to what I thought you meant when Larry said:

 

==============================

My understanding is that once you "participate" by asking for vfr flight following, any instructions they give "maintain vfr at 4000" are not merely a suggestion but instructions that must be followed.

==============================

 

...and you replied

 

==============================

You can cancel flight following at any time an do whatever you want, just like canceling IFR. Even after being given an instruction as above.

==============================

 

If I misunderstood you to say that you don't have to obey an ATC instruction in Class E airspace, I apologize. It's a common enough myth and I thought you were repeating it.

 

BTW, I don't have as much flight time as you but I've been given and have heard other pilots given direct instructions for headings and altitudes by ATC in other than Class B airspace. Pretty common in Class C but also, although definitely more rarely, in Class E when it involves either arrival/departure routes ("vectors for traffic") or something else going on. 

[PMcClure]

With VFR flight following, you direct your own path, altitude, etc... You can ask for flight following  and fly your own route. They may or may not care which way you were going. Any advice they give you (heading, speed, altitude) is only a suggestion. You are being given advisory for traffic and it also helps them (usually) to be in contact with you, rather than being unknown.

 

I used to fly a a lot of VFR flights around Orlando. It's no big deal. Sometimes I would tell them a route, sometimes they would ask me where  I am going since I was obviously not direct. When leaving Huntsville, you can give the same statement to clearance and add via (enroute fix), etc... Or you can just say, ....VFR departure to South East, request flight following. My experience in Huntsville is that they always set me up for flight following if I am VFR, even if I don't ask.  Where you going in Orlando? 

I apologize for starting things in the wrong direction. I didn't mean to imply that you can counteract ATC instructions. What I was trying to say is that with a VFR flight, your route is mostly up to your discretion. 

[RJBrown]

When I am headed south out of Denver I wont call for Flight following until south of Colorado Springs. Their airspace tops at 10,200. As I fly over at 10,500 or more I listen to CS Approach but do not talk unless called as traffic to another plane. If I ask for flight following north of Co Spgs they send me 20 miles east around their area. Once called as traffic while over their airspace I will for, safety sake, respond "Your unverified traffic is 1079V at 10,500" That way they know what is safe but know they can't vector me around.

91.123 is not as assumed above. Midlifefliyr is wrong.  Flight following is NOT a clearance. You can choose not to follow any instruction with impunity. You CANNOT be violated for not obeying an advisory.  Kinda stupid but legal. Read below:

 

 

 

§ 91.123 Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions.

(a) When an ATC CLEARANCE  has been obtained, no pilot in command may deviate from that clearance unless an amended clearance is obtained, an emergency exists, or the deviation is in response to a traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory. However, except in Class A airspace, a pilot may cancel an IFR flight plan if the operation is being conducted in VFR weather conditions. When a pilot is uncertain of an ATC clearance, that pilot shall immediately request clarification from ATC.

( Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.

© Each pilot in command who, in an emergency, or in response to a traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory, deviates from an ATC clearance or instruction shall notify ATC of that deviation as soon as possible.

(d) Each pilot in command who (though not deviating from a rule of this subpart) is given priority by ATC in an emergency, shall submit a detailed report of that emergency within 48 hours to the manager of that ATC facility, if requested by ATC.

(e) Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person operating an aircraft may operate that aircraft according to any clearance or instruction that has been issued to the pilot of another aircraft for radar air traffic control purposes.

(Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number 2120-0005)