IFR Question

[201er]

 

Are you sure about that? You cannot cancel IFR unless you can maintain VFR.

That's only in controlled airspace.

[midlifeflyer]

You cannot cancel IFR unless you can maintain VFR in controlled airspace. But an IFR clearance is only required in controlled airspace (subject to the "reckless" issue).

Browse through the Part 91 IFR rules. Notice how some apply to operations "under IFR" and others to operations "under IFR in controlled airspace". There's a reason for the difference. Then read the one about the requirement for a clearance.

[midlifeflyer]

From a legal standpoint, if your in class E, you could cancel your IFR.  Breaking out of the clouds is not necessary.  Personally, I'd wait until I got on the ground.

Did you mean to type class G?

[Marauder]

Like I said, this is a trick question...

[AmigOne]

Can't understand what is the rush in canceling. From a practical and safety point of view after breaking out of the clouds I would concentrate on landing, particularly at night. These days we all have cell phones to cancel after we have landed.

[201er]

Because there are loads of other planes and ATC is demanding it.

 

Also because the effort to cancel in the air is just to click the radio. On the ground you gotta remember to call, dial, wait, etc. The original example could just as well be pop out at 1000ft, descend into class G and cancel at 650ft (where it would be illegal to be VFR at night but legal to be IFR without a flight plan). That's enough cloud clearance to make it around the pattern if necessary.

[chrisk]

Did you mean to type class G?

Yes

[N9660M]

Regardless of flight plans, clearances, and controlled/uncontrolled airspace, think any time we leave the ground we are operating under one of two sets of rules: VFR or IFR.

 

That said, when we call ATC and "cancel IFR", we are not cancelling the IFR clearance (only ATC can provide or cancel a clearance).  We are cancelling our IFR flight plan, which is why if we cancel in the air with ATC there's no need to make an additional call to an FSS to close the flight plan after we land at a non-towered airport (and also why no one will come looking for us if we crash a 1/2 mile short of the runway). 

 

So the instant we "cancel IFR", we no longer have either an IFR clearance or flight plan.  By default that means we're now operating VFR and obliged to follow the VFR found in part 91, including the basic VFR weather minimums.  At night in class G that's 500 feet below the clouds.

 

I'm not a lawyer, but believe that's how it would play out in court.

 

Jim

[N9660M]

I'd also offer that we should be careful about confusing ATC's ability to control operations with the FAA's authority to regulate operations.

 

Controlled vice uncontrolled (i.e. class G) airspace is often determined by radar coverage.  If ATC can't see us, they can't effectively control us.  That's why, although throughout much of the U.S. the floor of class E airspace is 1200 feet AGL (or 700 AGL/surface around most airports), over mountainous terrain on sectional charts the floor of class E (or in other words, the beginning of class G) is often higher.  Radar coverage is not as good in the mountains, so more airspace is designated as class G.

 

But although ATC can't effectively control operations because they generally lack radar coverage for class G, that doesn't mean the FAA can't regulate them.  And for the purposes of this discussion the FAA does exactly that by establishing VFR weather minimums for operations in class G airspace.

 

OK, I rest my case, so to speak.

 

Jim

[201er]

So the instant we "cancel IFR", we no longer have either an IFR clearance or flight plan.  By default that means we're now operating VFR and obliged to follow the VFR found in part 91, including the basic VFR weather minimums.  At night in class G that's 500 feet below the clouds.

91.173   ATC clearance and flight plan required.

No person may operate an aircraft in controlled airspace under IFR unless that person has—

( a ) Filed an IFR flight plan; and

( b ) Received an appropriate ATC clearance.

 

 

61.57   Recent flight experience: Pilot in command.

( c ) Instrument experience. Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, a person may act as pilot in command under IFR or weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR only if...

 

 

 

In other words you can fly IFR if you are instrument current, airplane is instrument equipped, etc in any airspace. A flight plan is only required in controlled airspace and clearance is only required in controlled airspace. Therefore an instrument rated/current pilot can fly IFR in class G airspace without clearance or flight plan. That means the instrument rated pilot can cancel IFR flight plan but still continue flying IFR for the remainder of the approach in class G and not be obliged by VFR weather minimums.

[John Pleisse]

Well then why do VFR Class G night VFR mins (3,5 1 and 2) exist? So instrument rated pilots in places like Alaska, where this is real world flying, do this every day? Not being coy, I really don't know. If you are rated, the plane is rated and you are in class G airspace, you don't have to be on a plan, with ATC or by prescribed mins?

[201er]

Well that's a question for the FAA and not the pilots who simply abide by their rules.

[Marauder]

Well that's a question for the FAA and not the pilots who simply abide by their rules.

It's their rules until it becomes your problem...

[Super Dave]

Well then why do VFR Class G night VFR mins (3,5 1 and 2) exist? So instrument rated pilots in places like Alaska, where this is real world flying, do this every day? Not being coy, I really don't know. If you are rated, the plane is rated and you are in class G airspace, you don't have to be on a plan, with ATC or by prescribed mins?

Even though you do not need a clearance to operate IFR in class G, you still need to follow all other IFR rules... terrain clearance, cruising altitudes, flight visibility landing minimums, etc.

In parts of the US that class G only extends up to 700' AGL, the FAA has issued violations for operating IFR in class G without a clearance, under "careless and reckless".

In parts of the country (like some parts of Alaska) where class G extends all the way to 14,500' it is possible to take off, cruise, land under IFR without a flight plan, clearance, or communication with ATC. However, most working airplanes cannot operate IFR in uncontrolled airspace because it is prohibited by their part 121/125/135 op-specs.

[201er]

Quite enlightening. How is it careless/reckless to self announce on CTAF inbound on an instrument approach into class G but not careless/reckless to arbitrarily fly in clouds in 14,500 class G airspace? And don't say big sky theory for Alaska because that's not enough of a reason for regulation to allow it.

[ChrisH]

Ok, I'm buying that you can fly IFR in G without a clearance (Alaska folk would be in trouble otherwise). Now, the interesting question is if you take off, fly and land all G in IMC, what transponder code do you squawk? 1200 is VFR, which you aren't. Anything else is assigned via clearance,which you have none, and turning it off could be considered careless and reckless given the amount of TCAS flying. 

[NotarPilot]

Now, the interesting question is if you take off, fly and land all G in IMC, what transponder code do you squawk? 1200 is VFR, which you aren't.

 

 

Damn, that's a real good question.

[PTK]

Ok, I'm buying that you can fly IFR in G without a clearance (Alaska folk would be in trouble otherwise). Now, the interesting question is if you take off, fly and land all G in IMC, what transponder code do you squawk? 1200 is VFR, which you aren't. Anything else is assigned via clearance,which you have none, and turning it off could be considered careless and reckless given the amount of TCAS flying.

Well, let's think about this. The purpose of a squawk code is to be visible to "others", i.e. ATC and traffic. If you are not on an ATC code and IFR then by definition to "others" you are VFR. So the only possible code is 1200.

This came up on a recent IFR flight. It was widespread overcast and climbing through a pretty thick layer ATC calls out VFR traffic so and so direction, 500 feet below and climbing. and not talking to him. He may very well have been VFR, but I can't see how!

[midlifeflyer]

Well then why do VFR Class G night VFR mins (3,5 1 and 2) exist? So instrument rated pilots in places like Alaska, where this is real world flying, do this every day? Not being coy, I really don't know. If you are rated, the plane is rated and you are in class G airspace, you don't have to be on a plan, with ATC or by prescribed mins?

 

Keep in mind that the practical reality of uncontrolled airspace IFR is very limited. First, there's the obvious personal safety issue and the logistical problem in the OP of a missed approach and the need to get a brand new flight plan and clearance before re-entering the clouds in controlled airspace. 

 

Technically you are IFR in uncontrolled airspace any time you are in Class G. Take off from or land at an airport other than one having Class E or higher from the ground up, you are flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace until you enter Class E. If your IFR departure clearance involves an ATC-assigned heading, it will be "upon entering controlled airspace..." Even without that, you IFR clearance is not effective until you are at least in Class E.

 

The combined practical and legal problem takes place when you try to apply the technicality. There was a NTSB case some years back involving a pilot who took off through the marine layer on the west coast without filing an IFR flight plan, getting a clearance, or even speaking with ATC. He was nailed, not for violating 91.155 since the NTSB acknowledged that he was indeed "legally" flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace (the NTSB dismissed that charge) , but under 91.13 (reckless) because 

 

a pilot departing from an uncontrolled field in instrument conditions but without a clearance has no assurance that VFR conditions will prevail when he reaches controlled airspace. And furthermore, this type of takeoff also create the hazard of a collision with other aircraft. 

 

IOW, departing IFR without a clearance from an uncontrolled airport into controlled airspace where there are likely to be IFR aircraft relying on ATC separation services,. creates an unreasonable hazard and is therefore reckless.

 

Here's the full case for those interested: Administrator v. Murphy

 

So, the practical reality of no-clearance IFR in uncontrolled airspace is really limited to a few limited geographic areas of the country where you might be able to conduct an entire flight without even entering controlled airspace. I've only done uncontrolled IFR with controlled clearance only a few times and even then, only once involved entry into the clouds.

 

A is still the correct technical answer.

 

But consider 201er's answer to the "why cancel" question:

 

 

Because there are loads of other planes and ATC is demanding it.

 

 

Those "loads of other airplanes" is probably the best "legal" reason not to cancel when conditions are marginal.

[yvesg]

When taking off from my uncontrolled field IFR in Canada, I squawk 1000. Don't you have this code in USA too? I get the clearance via phone or radio and get a new code as I contact the terminal area before entering controlled airspace.

Yves

[AmigOne]

Because there are loads of other planes and ATC is demanding it.

You are forgetting the original question: "700'OVC at night" and nothing about "loads of airplanes". ATC can "demand" (at best they can request) all they want but as PIC I will do what is safest for me and my passengers which is concentrate on the landing. As to "one click and you are done" I think that you are forgetting also that the controller may be busy and not respond immediately and now your concentration is split between landing and talking. No way Jose, in that scenario I will cancel on the ground.

[midlifeflyer]

When taking off from my uncontrolled field IFR in Canada, I squawk 1000. Don't you have this code in USA too? I get the clearance via phone or radio and get a new code as I contact the terminal area before entering controlled airspace.

Yves

No. AFAIK there is no dedicated transponder code in the US for IFR in uncontrolled airspace. Code 1000 is reserved for something completely different (See the Appendix here: http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/JO%207110.66D%20.pdf)

.

 

I'm not familiar with Canadian regulations or flight practices so I'm just guessing that uncontrolled IFR in the US is just not significant enough to warrant it. And, what little of it there is, is typically not in airspace that requires a transponder.  

[PTK]

Because there are loads of other planes and ATC is demanding it.

ATC doesn't demand anything! They may ask or suggest but they understand that's not their decision.

[201er]

Ok, it's not a demand. It's a polite request to comply or get stuck holding for half an hour.

[AmigOne]

Ok, it's not a demand. It's a polite request to comply or get stuck holding for half an hour.

"Holding for half an hour" after you are cleared for the approach? Are you instrument rated? Talk about making the circumstances fit your argument...