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As probably the youngest pilot on here (25), I learned to fly a 152 at the age of 23. My first lesson in the 152 was the most mentally exhausting task I've ever accomplished. At 50 hours, I transitioned to a Cherokee, with a whopping 180hp. That was another challenge. At 100 hours, I knocked out my Complex endorsement in a glass-cockpit Comanche and my High-Performance endorsement in a 182 in the same month. Those were my new toughest challenges. And now, at 120 hours, I will be learning my Mooney, and I can tell you I would not let my 0-hour self learn to fly my plane, knowing what kind of landings I did to that 152 and how tough I thought it was to fly that little grasshopper. If you can't understand what I am saying, I *highly* suggest he at least knock out his first 20 hours in a trainer before moving to the Mooney. I'd also suggest he stick to said trainer as I could not image the added stress of flying a complex aircraft during the hair-raising PPL checkride. Just more stuff for him to nix your kid on. I *do* think the 152 is a proper trainer as is harder to fly right. He can also easily accomplish stalls/spins without fear of losing control in the Mooney.

Rabbit Aviation at San Carlos airport has dedicated one of their fuel trucks to Swift UL-84 (corrected).The price is about the same as their 100LL aviation fuel. I was at a Wings seminar last night at San Carlos, where we learned about the process for using the new Swift unleaded fuel. Anyone who has the old Petersen/EAA auto gas STC can use this Swift fuel without further paperwork, while others can buy the Swift STC IF if their aircraft is on their STC listing. Early Mooneys up to the G series are listed. Apparently there is a company in Sweden that is producing a 100 unleaded fuel, and Lycoming will extend their TBO interval to 3000 hours if this fuel is used exclusively. We heard that Swift is also working on a 100 Ul fuel for the near future. The Swift 84 (corrected) Ul is colorless at this point, and except for the smell could be confused with Jet A. The fuel is pungent, to say the least, and we heard that there are plans to add a dye to the fuel. We also heard about a Shell unleaded 102 octane fuel in development. It weighs about 7 pounds a gallon, but has more "power" per gallon. Aircraft type certificates would have to be revised to use this fuel, if Shell decides to market it. We heard how few refiners are currently manufacturing 100 LL, and how the distribution methods have changed. Consumption of 100 LL is declining, and one day we will see its demise, or very sizable price increases. We were told that Swift fuel is far easier to produce than the current 110 LL, and that virtually any existing refinery could produce it without much change to their operations. p> The Swift STCs are not cheap: $350 is not an uncommon number. It's too bad that neither EAA or AOPA is involved in these STCs. If they were I would hope that they could negotiate lower costs.

I think some of us here have forgotten how complicated a Mooney is compared to a fixed gear, fixed pitch prop trainer. What's the quip about the Mooney pilot arriving several minutes behind his ride? I suspect that would be jugglers don't start their training with 5 or 6 sabers or flaming torches.

Well my new videos are not as exotic as they were before, but the scenery is still nice.

The story I was told is he had some medical issues back then and that's why he sold it. Those issues were resolved and he regretted selling it ever since. He contacted me a year ago asking if I was interested in selling it back but I declined. When I decided to sell it he was the first person I emailed. At first I didn't get the feeling this was going to work because of all the upgrades but it did. He flew 51V for about 15 years so he's one happy soon to be Mooney owner!

So, I'm going to jump in and say, yes, you can learn in a Mooney. Why, well, why not? Every person is different and one size does not fit all. I would not have any issues putting my 18 year old son in our M20E (before I sold it...) and allow him to get his PPL with it. He already had almost 150 hours of observation in the right seat and had hand flown it numerous times. My insurance company was even okay with it and was surprised to learn that my premium would only go up an additional $750 a year to add him as a student pilot and there were no additional requirements like he must have 25 or 50 hours dual before solo. Having said that, the right instructor is CRITICAL to making it work. You don't want someone that still has a soaking wet CFI ticket doing the training. You would need to find a Mooney instructor that has tons of hours instructing in Mooney's. Really, flying a 180 hp M20A/B/C/G or 200 hp M20E/F/J is not rocket science. There are a few extra steps to work, but it's simply not that difficult. If you are taught the basics from day one, you do not learn/develop bad habits. That is why people have a hard time transitioning from the Piper and Cessna trainers to Mooney's or Beech's or what ever.....they have to have the bad habits they learned in a more "forgiving" aircraft beat out of them before they become proficient with a slicker air frame. The more time you have developing those bad habits, the rougher the transition will be. Would I put him in an Turbo M20K/M/TN for primary training, probably not. Would probably skip trying it in the long body M20R as well. Those are higher performance aircraft that need some more time under your belt to conquer, but it does go back to the same premise above, everyone is different and if taught the skills up front.....anything is possible. Just my $.01 for what it's worth. Cheer,s Brian

Heck, it's the panel placard with "drain & spin" that has me confused?!

Just curious why you're getting the 540 (which is standard wifi and BT) and a 440 with Wifi and BT too when they sell a cheaper version of the 440 without the wifi and BT. Could save you some money since it's not really necessary for both to have wireless capability if they are cross feeding. I had two 440s installed and only one has wireless connectivity. The avionics shop said its not really needed and I would just be spending extra money unnecessarily. Food for thought. P.S. - I've had no issue with my 440s and they really do blown Garmin's GTNs out of the water with features. I learn new features all the time that are well thought out and useful. I also agree with your "other than Garmin" comment. But in the case of the Avidynes, they're a much better product. However, Garmin is like a religion with very devout followers and anything else you speak of is pure heresy.

My son did about 40 hrs in a cub before transitioning to the Mooney. We had a very experienced Mooney instructor and it worked out well, He pretty much had the bad landings worked out with the cub (and learned to use his feet) He still is quite partial to the cub.

Jim, I'm the "other one" carusoam mentioned in his post. I have been following Sam since before I started my training and every time I fly in the little Cherokee 140's that the school has I am glad I am training in a simple, forgiving plane. I'm coming up on my check-ride soon and although I am just a little over 40 hours I 'feel' I am ready. I guess I'll find out this Saturday how ready I am when I have my stage check with a different CFI... I don't think there is any way I would be this far along if I was training in a complex plane. I don't have the experience that others on this forum have, but although it may appear to be cheaper for your son to train in a Mooney that you own, in the long run with the added hours he would need, it might not be. My plan is to finish up my PPL, then buy a Mooney, get my complex endorsement, whatever transition training insurance will require, plus whatever training I need on top of that to feel comfortable in the plane. Good luck to you and your son! When my son turned 18 a few months back we gave him a discovery flight for his birthday. I sat in the backseat and took pictures and video as he did most of the flying with a little help from my CFI on the take off and landing. On the drive home he said "That was the best birthday present ever." I think he's hooked...

So, I sold our M20E last month as mentioned in the classified section and I had made a reference that we picked up our new bird roughly 4 days later. Decided to finally reveal that I went to the "dark side" and ended up buying a 1968 Beech E33A Bonanza....I know boo-hiss... I was targeting a later model M20J or even an early model M20R but the prices and useful load that I was looking for with my current/future mission just didn't match as well as I had hoped. All the M20J's had really low useful loads, most were less than 900 pounds??? So I started looking at the F33A, S35, and V35 (straight, A, and B versions) Bonanza's just to see what else was out there. Unfortunately, prices for good F33A's are rather high (over inflated in my opinion) but we got lucky and found ours in the sub-$100K range. There are only 51 E33A's on the FAA registry, so this particular model is even more rare than some Mooney's. Production on the E33A only lasted 2 years (68-69) before changing to the F33A model in 1970. The useful load on ours is 1174 pounds and will carry 270 pounds in the baggage compartment. Huge improvement over my M20E and no way I could have my son do what he did in the second photo with a Mooney. The CG limits are not an issue (unlike the V tails, which can be a challenge sometimes) so managing our flights is easy, even with full fuel on-board. Speed wise, I gained about 20 knots over my M20E while burning about 6 gallons more per hour (...ouch) with the 2 additional cylinders to feed. The biggest selling point for my wife was the back seat area (never should have put her back there when we were looking at F33A's...) and passenger comfort. The rear seats lay almost flat in the fully reclined position and can be positioned anywhere from full up to full down. Not sure if the split seat Mooney's were capable of doing that??? Interesting to note that the Bonanza is 6 feet shorter from wing-tip to wing-tip than my M20E (I had the 201 wing-tips on mine). So, here she is just outside my hangar: Cheers, Brian former 1967 M20E owner/driver.

whoa!! I was just looking at this today and thinking hmmm maybe I should increase the budget by $100,000. She was sure a good looking airplane and a new owner should be thrilled.

I believe my IFR panel flying has evolved from a "read the needles and create a mental situational awareness visualization" to directly observing graphically-depicted flight, navigation and weather data. The all-screen panel is a quantum step up in capability compared to the six-pack panel I trained on 30 years ago. My recent 5,000 mile cross-country would have been harder without the graphical presentations and automation. I probably would have landed a couple times more to see what FSS reported if I didn't have on-board weather. Deviation decisions were greatly aided by being able to "rubber band" the route on the iPad to avoid weather, then send that route to the panel. The smooth integration of compatible screens is a key feature of my panel. Route changes show up on all screens after entry in one. The route shows on weather screens, traffic appearis on the geo-referenced approach plates, the airport diagram that appears at taxi speed after landing are examples of the many valuable assists to single-pilot flying. With 600 hours of flying the G500 I am still impressed with how much more it tells me than the standard six ever could. That it all works together so well is an impressive achievement. My panel happens to be nearly all Garmin and I have no reason to think I'd do better with a more diverse mix of vendors' gear. I doubt anyone who can afford to upgrade has regretted it. There are no folks planning to rip out their Aspen or G500 to install a KCS-55A, are there?

My first Garmin Pilot screen shots (thanks to Marauder). I can check weather in-flight or on the ground on my cell phone. Weather correlation is very good and accurate. The lightning depiction correlates very well with my WX10 stormscope. Moving weather trend is very helpful in assessing future weather. Horizontal and vertical format. José

My son is getting his private and he is NOT doing it in my Mooney M20E. Yes I think its possible but I think it makes so much more sense to keep it simple until he gets his private. We've found an excellent instructor who doesn't overcharge ($35 for instructor $100 for his Piper Archer if you put $1000 in advance) with lots of students and great attention to detail so my son can easily compare notes with the others. I checked with my insurance company for their guess at covering him in the Mooney when he's a new private pilot and their guess was half again the price I get with my commercial and 400+ hours and they'd require him to get 10 hours in it with an instructor. I didn't ask them what the insurance cost to do all the student work in a complex aircraft.... When my son goes flying with me I get tips of things he's learning that help me polish up my game and of course I let him take the controls a bit and help me with the navigation.

I remember the repeated crash and goes that I did in rental 152 and 172's during training while learning to land. I eventually moved up to flying arrows for the complex and retract experience. I got my high performance endorsement in a staitionaire and spend a lot of time in G1000 172's before moving up to my Mooney. Brad

I'm a fairly new Lightspeed headset user. I ordered the tango's basically the day they came out. The company is very focused on customer feedback and participation, I really like that. Every now and then they'll send me stuff, looking for feedback and what not. The customer rep I worked with went well out of his way when I placed my order to make sure everything was up to snuff. I also feel like I might have had something to do with the update they made to the battery door and the usb charging port. When I made my initial 'out of the box feedback' video, I specifically called out that design flaw, and it has since been changed in the new version. Good headset, good company. And your poster is pretty awesome too! With that hand flicky thing you're doing, you should be on a gameshow!

I vaguely remember doing repeated touch and goes in the C150s I trained in a very long time ago. It's a pretty efficient way to get a maximum number of reps learning to land. Almost no one does touch and goes in a M20 Mooney, certainly not in primary training. However, when you have a Mooney your child can get lots of useful experience in the right seat while going places that will come in handy once he/she has a PPL. Radio communication, xponder codes, navigation, holding heading and altitude, talking about weather decisions... are all aircraft independent.

+1 on something other than a Mooney for the PPL. And depending on size (@Yetti chime in with me) it needs to be a plane he fits in comfortably. When I sat in my first 152, my knee firewalled the throttle with the seat fully back. No such problems in any Mooney with my 6'5" frame or others even taller from comments on the forum.

my two cents is get his feet wet in a rental. I felt sorry for the 172 that I slammed into the runway on multiple occasions. Definitely glad that it wasn't my mooney.

Depending on when his birthday is I can give @Raptor05121 a run for his money on the youngest one around (Im also 25). I recently finished up my PPL and have been lackadaisically looking at getting an M20C or E (life has that habit of getting in the way more often than not). I did all my training in either a Piper Warrior or Archer, so here are some thoughts, the truth is, its up to you, you have lots of hours and you know what goes on in the cockpit, keep in mind a lot has changed in the last 10 years. 1. There is a lot going on during training, adding prop management and gear management (and cowl flaps) out of the gate will either build really good skills or get you into hot water fast. 2. Mooneys are fast, and from my understanding slippery, decent management is a real task even in older mooneys from my understanding. You can pitch an archer pretty steeply and pull the power and not really worry to much about the yellow arc in my experience flying them. 3. Trainers take a beating, beatings = maintenance costs. 4. I wont get into the nuances of landing a mooney (since I dont really have any experience doing so). But the various Cherokees (235 and 6 aside) are pretty much easy as it gets to land. Authoritative in crosswind and wont float that much with provided flair angle. 5. The Cherokees/Cessnas of the world are about as benign as a plane gets, I have had days in the warriors and archers where getting the plane to actually stall was tough. You can slam them on the stall horn doing power on stalls and the nose just wont break. This provides a bit of training safety in some regards. 6. Trainers are only so good to actually own. I have been doing a lot of speed/cost/number crunching on various planes and the Mooneys win out over the Cherokees/172's etc for so many reasons when looking at them as cross country machines. Just some thoughts.... Regards Dave

Ever consider that he might simply be bored? I can't imagine being a cop in a sleepy little town. What beats watching airplanes, other than perhaps attractive young ladies?[emoji846] Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

We used the M-20D Master in fixed gear configuration for primary training in the '60's. It worked well enough. (It was either that or a Tri-Pacer). (The PA-28 really hadn't come along yet.) None of those were all that demanding in terms of stick and rudder skills. I guess for my money, I would opt for a 172 over a 150/152. More room, upward mobility (4seats), and I discovered a student could make more trips around the pattern per hour to offset the cost difference.

While there are a few "geniuses" on the planet who seem to be able to master a skill almost instantly, most humans have to learn by progression. You start at A, move to B, then C, etc. And unless you really are a genius, the problem with trying to start at "D" is that you haven't formed the fundamentals required at A, B and C. You might actually become okay at some of the skill sets that D requires, but that lack of fundamentals will sneak up on you. And in flying, you don't want anything sneaking up on you. That's how we get 777s that crash on the visual approach to San Francisco because the pilots only know how to fly an ILS. I used to teach karate, and there is an expression there that fits: "When the student is ready, the master will teach." Besides, learning to fly should be fun, and it's going to be a lot more fun to learn in a slow, forgiving airplane that will tolerate mistakes.

When I was instructing regularly many years ago I had a similar situation. It was the local sheriff and he was just checking to see why I was out so late. We chatted for a bit and no harm no foul and it was completely pleasant. I'd walk up and talk to them.

There are cops hanging out at our airport all the time. They are just goofing off, they can hide behind the security fence with the rest of us. They never give us any trouble. They just like airplanes and the people who fly them and just want to talk about airplanes.

Should've bought your last plane first. Everybody says it. The Mooney really does seem to be the beginner Bonanza. I don't think anybody keeps stats, but I have found it pretty consistent that if a Mooney owner decides to "trade up" and they don't go twin or turbo prop, they go Bonanza.

Agree Peevee, and remember garlint, Mooney Lives Matter. I think we need t-shirts... (couldn't resist) :-)

My 68 M20C has a 1051 lb useful load. That's 200 lbs more than my 56 182, 20 knots faster, 4 gph less. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I was holding off replying to see if you got some more technical info from somebody but here's what I can offer. I installed a set of 5 nulites at annual in June and can finally see everything very well at night. I have 2 stock dimmer controls (panel and radio lights) and tied these into the radio pot (independent of the under-glareshield lights which have a fair amount of current draw by themselves). I don't believe you'll have any problems unless everything is on one dimmer circuit. But I have to ask if you have "incandescents" as I'm not sure the LED versions work without upgrading the dimmer circuit. Here's how it looks now.[emoji846] Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

+1 Join MAPA and take their PPP course! Best regards, -a-

Welcome aboard, Jim. Search for learning in a Mooney. You will find that you can, and it has been done. But you will also find, there are better planes to learn in. It will be much faster and lower cost than using a Ferrari to learn how to drive. There are a few threads here by a user called Samarai husky. He is enduring learning to fly in a more challenging plane called a Cirrus. Another student pilot and writer is documenting learning to fly in something much simpler. Read their posts. As for knocking off rust, get a Mooney and a Mooney specific instructor. That is really fun! These are simple Private Pilot thoughts, -a- For some easy model selecting ideas, you might go here....

Thanks Anthony! So...who's comin' to FL next week? I'm offering selfies with my panel for $2.00 each during the Friday Airport Day. (kidding)

If TT = transition training, yes I did skip it. When I recently bought my current 231 I had 50 hours in M20Ks, previously owned "C", "Turbo F" and "M" model Mooneys, have 800 total hours in Mooneys, 2,000 hours total time, CFI, CFII, MEI & ATP. I think I was OK skipping transition training.

I received a fun package in the mail yesterday. Lightspeed Aviation mailed me a promotional poster they developed for use at Oshkosh for the Tango wireless headset. During my time flying with the Skytypers in Chino, CA for an AOPA article I took a selfie while wearing the Tangos and being photobombed by the #3 Skytyper. Anyway, I sent the photo to Lightspeed and they liked it so much that it was one of five used in their campaign at OSH. The Tango really is a great headset. I love that it is wireless, the inferface with my phone is super easy. The sound quality is excellent. The headset is lightweight and very comfortable. I used it to and from OSH this year and in the Mooney Caravan. Lightspeed is the headset sponsor for Right Seat Ready! our companion seminar. So, all of our attendees not only get to look and and hold the Tango, but we use them hooked up wirelessly to our PA system for our emergency simulations. I wanted to share the fun photos with my Mooney Family. Hope to see everyone at MAPA next Month.

We also have a webpage, IFD440.com, that has a few other snippets of features and functionalities if anyone is interested.

@flight2000 seems to have covered the insurance answer (I am only looking at the stuff for just me so I didn't have the answer). I also would advise to just make a call (if you haven't already) to the AOPA insurance people they were able to answer way more over the phone than the policy paper explained which was nice. @Raptor05121 I'm March 22nd so you have me 4 months, if you are every in the KPHL/KPNE ill buy you a beer. Regards Dave

That makes perfect sense, thanks, Brian! Yeah, crazy how much more the car insurance went up compared to the plane's insurance. Reminds me of the fact of how ironic I found it when I was renting an airplane at 20, but couldn't rent a car until I was 25. =)

Jim, This PPL training scenario is part of my thoughts also. I have a 16 year old son and a 13 year old daughter who both "say" they would like to get their ticket. I myself am a relatively...ok, extremely low time private pilot that has transitioned into a Mooney far sooner than I thought I would. I fly often with one or both of the kids and try to exact some knowledge upon them as we fly. I think using a far simpler, slower, "training" aircarft is the right thing to do. The advantage of you having your own mooney could save some money in that when he struggles with a particular maneuver or instrument, there can be some usefulness to extra training in your plane as oppossed to extra rental in another plane. I also believe that he will have a much greater grasp of the entire flying concept if he spends any amount of time flying with you in your own plane. I have tasked both of my kids to pass the FAA written and I will take care of the flight training once they do that. Good luck in your search! Ron

Hank, An ASI and an Altimeter isn't 10% of what an Aspen shows the discriminating pilot. Likewise a JPI EDM 930 does a lot more than show you whether the oil pressure is in the green. IMNSHO neither of these glass panel devices is obscenely priced.

I have my plane hangared at an airport with its own airport police as well as the local city police which patrol the AOA. I often work on my plane during evening hours, sometimes very very late, and they would occasionally stop by to check my airport ID badge. Not so much anymore, now that just drive on past my hangar. They probably recognize my car by now. I never minded it since I appreciate the vigilance around my plane. I pay $625 a month and I like to think I'm also paying for that extra security, because I am.

Thanks, I think he will eventually. First he's leaving for two years to serve a mission for church and then it's on to college. He doesn't want a career flying so he might end up like me and start chasing after it later in life.

The speeds that different people post are also vastly different power settings. (Not just mods like windshield). My stock 67 F gets 138knts true at gross running the engine easy at 23/23 0-25LOP at 7000. With just me and fuel to the tabs, 147ktas.. I plan 135kts because I climb at about 105kts and I don't go crazy descending fast.. The fuel burn in cruise is right at 7gph like this. Useful load is 1040lbs and 64gal (656lbs payload with full fuel). More range than I care to go.

i did slow flight and power on/off stalls a few hours after buying my F model. We did it at 3000agl. it did a slight wing drop but nothing scary. nice buffet before stall. And power on stall was shoot for the moon to get it to go. shes got some horses under the hood

But you have a short body, I've said this before, different models can have different characteristics, don't paint all models with your 1 experience in a C. IF I had a C and was moving up to a mid body/long body I would get some Mooney specific transition training.

Oh and after you get the plane attend a PPP course... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Price point is important. I like the way the Avidyne feels and the 10.2 software and IFD100 mobile app blows away anything Garmin will have for years, if ever. And with the big boxes being plug and play, the only real avionics labor will be wiring the new transponder and ADS-B, pretty minimal and painless upgrade with minimal down time. That's important too. And I'm getting a very good price on both purchasing the Avidyne equipment and in trade value for the old Garmin stuff. Anytime I can do "other than Garmin" I'll generally take that choice.

Having some time behind a G1000, but learned on steam. Speed tapes are slower to understand. You have to Look at it read a number then know if that number is correct. With dial gauges all you have to do is make sure the needle is in the proper place. So now do a scan of all the instruments and engine. It would take a lot more time. Like I can't tell you what the fuel pressure should be, but I know the needle needs to be top left. and it needs to change when I turn the pump on and off. The only guage I know the numbers on are the tach and MP. A needle will catch your eye if it fluctuates a tape will not. How you catch a mech fuel pump before it fails.

Final XC dual today; Next time i will be going on my own. Unfortunitly it seems all of this is orchastrated, meaning i cant just go out on my own flight plan. They choose the airports, i have to go over the flight plan with the CFI before the flight, etc, etc. Anyway; For the final supervised XC we got to take out the SR22 and come back through the bravo of SFO; Picture perfect day... In fact....