Insurance for new low time pilots?

[benpilot]

 

I like Mooneys but when I obtain a quote from a local insurance broker on a 252K or Mooney TLS Bravo, the full insurance was over 6k per year! Does anyone have recommendations for insurance deals for a new low time pilot? Looking at newer Mooney 201MSE as well.

[Scott Aviation]

Keep looking. I just went out hunting for renewal time and got 4 quotes back ranging from 1600-2500 to wont insure me being low time.

77 J. 82,000. 2 mill liab. 270 hours 70 on mooney. So I think that's reasonable price. Any others, similar boat?

[Marauder]

Parker on this site can help you understand the requirements for insurance -- or at least point you in the right direction. When you say low time, how low you talking about? Any of the Mooneys you want to insure will have some requirements for complex flight time and pilot experience. Getting an instrument or additional ratings will help. If you are below 100 hours in total time with no or little complex time, you can expect to be paying a premium. How much were the Bonanzas you were looking at to insure?

[kerry]

Get an earlier model mooney and build time then upgrade.  Another option is a mooney partnership with higher time pilots.

[carusoam]

Kerry has hit on a good point...

It is statistically too easy to buy a fast plane and get in trouble over your head. People have done it before you.

An Ovation will cost less than $2k /yr. with appropriate experience and IR.

Find a way to gain experience and ratings while working on your insurance negotiation skills...

Best regards,

-a-

Patrick's memory gently reminds us of these challenges.

[FBCK]

When I first bought my 231 three years ago, with 25 hours on an Arrow and a total of 125 hours, $125,000 hull, my rate was $4,000.  With 250 hours and 125 on the Mooney this year it was $2000, it going in the right direction anyway.  Thats in Canada, everything is more expensive, but it pays to have a good broker and to prehaps shop arround.

[philipneeper]

airpower insurance, ask for tj.

[PMcClure]

My Experience:  Bought an F model with $40k hull value as a 125 hour VFR pilot. My rate was $2100 per year. I got my IR and 50 hours and the rate came down to $700. I built about 250 hours in that plane and moved to a Bonanza with $300k value and the insurance was $4500 per year then came down to about half after 100 hours. Went back to my Ovation with a $250k value and the insurance is less than $2000. From the insurance point of view, the M20F was the same as the M20R. There was no requirement for extra time or training in the Ovation. The advice you received above is very good. Follow the aviation ladder and you'll be safer and happier and spend less on insurance and damages!!

 

One last comment for you: In my experience, the insurance companies are smart. If they charge you a lot of money, it is because there is a high risk. Example: I was 18 and wanted to by a hot motorcycle. The insurance was almost as much the bike costs. I asked why and the answer was that the life expectancy of that bike in my hands was about one year! I didn't buy it. 

[N601RX]

I had 60 hrs total time all in a 150 when I purchased my F model.  65K of coverage cost my $2375.  The next year it came down to $1400.

[chrisk]

I went the route of spending money on getting an IR, and 10 hours in a Mooney before I bought my 231.  My insurance is around $1600 per year, and I have less than 300 hours.  Hull value is around $75K  I went through AOPA.  

[AndyFromCB]

My two cents. A hopped up turbo model is not a good fit for someone without an IFR ticket or much experience managing a piston engine. The engine management in these birds takes about 2/3 of your time during the most critical phases flight. The insurance company is probably right. Basically, they don't want your business. Buy a J, the best mooney ever made from the engine perspective, fly it for 2 years, get an IFR ticket, stay on ground when the weather doesn't cooperate, slowly ease yourself into flying the soup. Then get a Bravo (the best overall Mooney in my opinion) and still stay on the ground a lot, but a lot less than a J.

[Hank]

It will be cheaper to suck it up and pay the high first year rates. Then get at least 100 hours flown in it so that you can renew with 100 hours in type. That's what I did--bought my plane with 62 hours and a temporary ticket, flew exactly 100 hours and renewed insurance for half of the first year rate. When I got my Instrument ticket, insurance fell another 30%.

 

Insurers care about total and recent flight time and recurring instruction. Go to a MAPA PPP as soon as you finish the required dual instruction and get comfortable flying the plane. The instruction is good, and the certificate and FAA Wings will help make you credible to insurers.

 

Or you can buy a plane, fly it a while, sell it and buy the one you want.

 

I bought my second plane first. YMMV.

[chrisk]

My two cents. A hopped up turbo model is not a good fit for someone without an IFR ticket or much experience managing a piston engine. The engine management in these birds takes about 2/3 of your time during the most critical phases flight. The insurance company is probably right. Basically, they don't want your business. Buy a J, the best mooney ever made from the engine perspective, fly it for 2 years, get an IFR ticket, stay on ground when the weather doesn't cooperate, slowly ease yourself into flying the soup. Then get a Bravo (the best overall Mooney in my opinion) and still stay on the ground a lot, but a lot less than a J.

I'm not sure I agree with your estimate of 2/3 of your time managing the engine during the most critical phases of flight.  What are you thinking needs to be done?  For me, a go around or missed approach is the busy time.   Mixture should already be rich.  Prop should already be at max rmp.  Whats next: add power, step on rudder, check MPs push nose down, trim, wheels up, more trim and more trim, check heading, check speed, check MP, flaps up, cowl flaps open, check heading, speed, MP again, make radio call.  Then more trim.   Once you get the feel for the throttle, the MP checks are just a quick glance.  --And doesn't the Bravo have an automatic wast gate, so you can't over boost the engine?  Which would make it the same as any other Mooney, except for the ones with carb heat.

 

Now, I might agree that managing the engine takes 5%, at a time when you have a 95+% work load.

[AndyFromCB]

I'm not sure I agree with your estimate of 2/3 of your time managing the engine during the most critical phases of flight.  What are you thinking needs to be done?  For me, a go around or missed approach is the busy time.   Mixture should already be rich.  Prop should already be at max rmp.  Whats next: add power, step on rudder, check MPs push nose down, trim, wheels up, more trim and more trim, check heading, check speed, check MP, flaps up, cowl flaps open, check heading, speed, MP again, make radio call.  Then more trim.   Once you get the feel for the throttle, the MP checks are just a quick glance.  --And doesn't the Bravo have an automatic wast gate, so you can't over boost the engine?  Which would make it the same as any other Mooney, except for the ones with carb heat.

 

Now, I might agree that managing the engine takes 5%, at a time when you have a 95+% work load

 

Yes, Bravo has an automatic wastegate, but it can still overboost quite easily when it's cold outside. I am mostly talking about keeping it cool on climb and warm on descents. On hot summers, both 231 and a Bravo can go over 400 very quickly. The risk of detonation there is very real. Then they cool down too much, too quickly. I just don't consider turbo charged airplanes to be good for anything but one take off, one cruise, one descent per flight. They are A to B machines, not trainers. Fly them like one, and you'll be the guy doing tops every 800 hours. 

 

Also, you add dealing with oxygen altitude, generally worse weather these airplanes allow one to tackle, many more potential points for partial or complete engine failure modes. I'm not saying it can't be done. I only had about 300TT when I bought my Bravo, but by then I wasn't a complete newbie.

[chrisk]

Yes, Bravo has an automatic wastegate, but it can still overboost quite easily when it's cold outside. I am mostly talking about keeping it cool on climb and warm on descents. On hot summers, both 231 and a Bravo can go over 400 very quickly. The risk of detonation there is very real. Then they cool down too much, too quickly. I just don't consider turbo charged airplanes to be good for anything but one take off, one cruise, one descent per flight. They are A to B machines, not trainers. Fly them like one, and you'll be the guy doing tops every 800 hours. 

 

Also, you add dealing with oxygen altitude, generally worse weather these airplanes allow one to tackle, many more potential points for partial or complete engine failure modes. I'm not saying it can't be done. I only had about 300TT when I bought my Bravo, but by then I wasn't a complete newbie.

Now I agree with this!

[benpilot]

Thanks guys this is great advice! I'm finishing up my PPL in a Piper and will do a checkout in a local club Mooney 20F that is available for my complex endorsement to get familiar with the aircraft dynamics.

[triple8s]

Seriously? Build time in entry level aircraft and then transition. Insurance companies are interested in their risks being low, say what you want, but the most widely used trainers in the world are NOT complex aircraft and this is for a reason. Yes a person can learn in a Mooney a Bo or any aircraft but some of these are not very forgiving. Get experience, build time and the rates will go down when youre ready to move up to a complex ship. There is another alterantive......buy a Mooney cash and dont have insurance, you only need it when you bend something anyway.

[aviatoreb]

My advice - the insurance is high for a reason - because you are currently in a high risk category.  Low time pilot wanting a handful of an airplane that may be above your head.  I say don't get such an airplane until the risk is a bit lower and use the good actuary folks at the insurance company as your risk management team to learn what is appropriate.

 

That said, here is the workaround.  Buy the 6k insurance.  Get lots of dual in your new airplane and fly LOTS, like 100 hours in your first 3 months, and then cancel your insurance and go with a different insurance company. But now you have 100hrs in type and lots of dual.  Should get lower rates. I read once about someone on beechtalk that suggested this route.

[teethdoc]

I bought my '78 J 2 days before I got my PPL (wish I could have waited 2 days, but that's the way it worked out.)  I got a few companies to look at it and Falcon and Traverse were the only 2 who even found somebody willing to insure it.  $2300 w/ 60h, 8h complex time, and 2 days short of a checkride.  They requeired 25h with CFI, 10 under the hood.  Hopefully my options will open up and it will go down this next year.

[Hank]

Fly it a lot this year. My C ran $3100 in 2007 with 62 hours, -0- complex and a temporary certificate, along with several refusals to insure. With 100 Mooney hours at renewal, it dropped to $1600; now with IR and 500+ Mooney hours, I just renewed with Phoenix for $1000 with participation in FAA Wings and a recent MAPA PPP. First year required 15 or 20 dual including 5 instrument because I used a Mooney-experienced instructor whom they approved, otherwise it would have been 25 dual plus 10 solo. Be glad that rates have come down the last two or three years.

 

Make good use of your dual time. Travel around, visit places you've never heard of. Land on runways that slope up, slope down, have humps or look like ski jumps while you have that CFI beside you. This will prepare you for traveling on your own. Learn the procedures, study the performance charts, and fly the numbers ±20 feet and ±1-2 knots. When you can make good landings at strange airports with unusual runways and unfamiliar ground references, then you will be ready to roam the country.

[Earl]

When I bought my Mooney five years ago I had around 210 hours but had not flown for 15 years.  My initial premium was over $5K but now with 400+ hours and an instrument rating it is less than $1,500 per year for the same plane (I did drop the hull coverage to reflect the fact that I unfortunately bought at the peak of the market).  Try Travers Insurance and see what they can find for you.  Any way you look at it you will be paying a lot because with low time and a complex plane it is a lot more likely you may have issues and thats what drives rates.

[201er]

 

I like Mooneys but when I obtain a quote from a local insurance broker on a 252K or Mooney TLS Bravo, the full insurance was over 6k per year! Does anyone have recommendations for insurance deals for a new low time pilot? Looking at newer Mooney 201MSE as well.

Not to poop on your party or anything, but I hope you may pose a little thought as to why the insurance intends to charge you so much and whether or not you agree the risk is worthwhile...

[KSMooniac]

Get 10+ hours in your club F, then go shopping again for insurance.  If the *right* Mooney comes along before then, negotiate with your insurance broker...offer to get 20 or 25 hours of dual instruction before solo for example.  Use half that time to learn the Mooney (with a good Mooney CFII, not a 250 hr new CFI at the FBO) and the other half to start instrument training.  Fly at least 100 hours and get that IR in the first year and insurance will be dramatically less in year two.  The "extra" insurance you'll pay in year one is far less than the transaction costs of buying a "lesser" plane and trading up later.

Having said that, make darn sure you know what you're getting into.  Like others said, the rates for you are high right now for a reason.  If you have the right attitude, aptitude, and instructor you can do it successfully, but there are risks of course.

[TWinter]

I think the problem is that you are looking at a whole lot of Mooney for a low time pilot. I am a low time 200+/- VFR pilot and stayed with the E model for the mere fact that it kept me at the 200 hp limit, but at the same time was still pretty speedy. You might have mad skills and can handle HP and performance of the birds you mentioned, but I know I've got my hands pretty full with 200 hrs and my E model. I think maybe walking before you run would get you where you want to be with the insurance broker. I've had my PPL for twenty-one years now. I got my PPL at the minumum required hours, flew off and on for the next year and like most guys in their mid 20s found another mountain to climb . Now at 49 yrs old I'm fired up and in the saddle again and lovin' my 74E model. Later with more experience I may step up to the plate (love those Rockets), but for now my E gets the job done, I gain experience, confidence and my insurance is only $1600 a year (75K) hull.  

 

Bottom line is: As a low time pilot do you really need that much airplane?,  If so and you can afford that much airplane the insurance cost is secondary..You can bet the insurance company looks at loss vs. risk. You have both going against you. Low time and high dollar plane. Good luck either way   I say walk first.

[benpilot]

I'm looking at getting a Mooney 201 as a first plane under 100k, fast enough but first will get checked out in a club Mooney.