Taking Mooney for a Spin (poll)

[acrotex]

I have spun a number of different aircraft (Luscombe 8A, C170A, Pitts S1S and S1T,  Sukhoi 26 and 29,  RV4, C150). 

The thing I don't like about a Mooney (M20C in my case) is that there is very little rudder travel (IMHO).

Because of that, I would be somewhat concerned about spin recovery.  May be OK if nobody In back seat and no baggage in rear.

As CG moves aft, spin recovery becomes more of a problem if fully developed.  That is usually where the problems happen during certification flights.

 

For example, you can hardly side slip a mooney due to so little rudder or rudder travel.  I like planes that I can side slip. 

The RV4 was also similar in that it did not slip well.  However it would spin fine (single pilot, never did it with a passenger).

I spun it about 12 or 13 turns a few times.   It would recover fine with Biggs method.  With aft CG may be quite different.

 

Never tried it in the M20C

[Hank]

My M20-C slips very well, but I have the full-length rudder. In the early 60's, the rudder only reached to the horizontal stabilizer.

 

As for spinning, never have and don't plan to in a Mooney. This is what my Owner's Manual has to say about it. Sounds too exciting for me.

 

What I don't understand, people get excited and call me a test pilot for not using Takeoff flaps on every single departure just because the Book says maybe I should, but then glibly talk about spinning their aircraft when the same Book says very specifically to not spin the airplane!

[carusoam]

Acrorex,

Which rudder do you have?

As Hank points out, '65 and older are shorter than the rest. They definitely run out of authority in strong X-winds...

Full length probably isn't much better.

Test pilots must like strong cross-winds on their no-flap T/Os,

-a-

[Guitarmaster]

Just thought I would add my two cents to the discussion. As a new instructor years ago, I had a student who bought a 65C and wanted me to teach him to fly in it. Being the young dumb instructor, I took the job.

The power off stalls fully configured were predictable but slightly uncomfortable. Watch out for that secondary. Power on stalls however, were a drastically different story!

power on departure stall resulted in uncomfortable nose up and then, without warning, Instant break to the right and we were looking at the world upside down! This was much to my surprise. It recovered quickly with abrupt and full controls. Now, the interesting thing. In order to keep the ball centered, I needed to have almost full right rudder. This of course made it an uncoordinated stall. Hence the spin entry. The conundrum is, if I had not pushed full right rudder, the ball would've been hanging out to the left. This would, of course, produce a left turning spin.

I have not and will not do a full power stall in my F. It's not really a big deal IF YOU ARE EXPECTING IT. If you are not expecting it, it happens VERY fast with NO warning. Now, the C that I flew didn't have stall strips so there will probably be more warning in my F.

Cheers!

Matt

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[phecksel]

I was told a story by one of the orginal old timers that an instructor was absolutely insisting he could get ANY airplane out of a spin.  He and the plane owner went up in the Mooney (don't recall the model or even how long ago this occured) and set the plane into a full spin... where it remained until it made a hole in the ground.

 

I have no reason to doubt the story.  IRC, it occured at Kerreville.

 

My own experience of power on stalls in my C was if the ball was perfectly centered, it would not break.  But be off 0.01° and it's going to break, and break hard.

[bonal]

Went to LVK and started the aerobatic syllabus at a flight school there. Went out and did lots of multi rotation spins in a 152 aerobatic. When training in my 150 my instructors could never get it to spin. Doing it with the 152 I was surprised how hard and fast you must apply aileron to get a real spin started. I think its important to point out the difference between a spiral and a real spin. They are not the same thing and I think what some think is a spin is actually a spiral. Whenever I fly with my CFI we always work on all aspects of stalls but always ease off just prior to a full break. I often have to do real aggressive slips on approach because many of the fields I fly to are surrounded by close mountains my D/C slips very nicely but reading this thread reminds me to be very attentive to maintaining proper flight control at all times.

[FloridaMan]

I'm not comfortable doing stalls in my plane. I wanted to become more comfortable and went up with a well known skilled instructor. The instructor insisted that I accelerate the yoke to my lap and hold the stall until he told me to recover. We started with power off stalls, then partial power, then full power at around 5000 ft. The plane bucked, fought and would drop one wing and then the other, but it did not roll over on me. Also, when stalling, I was trained to look outside of the plane and focus on distance features. 

 

Another thing I've noticed is that Mooneys older than my '67 have rudders that only go down to the horizontal stabilizer, whereas mine and later have a full-length rudder. I'm wondering if this doesn't have something to do with the spin safety reputation of the airplane -- just as issues with early Bonanzas stuck with the reputation of the model. 

 

With that said, I'm no test pilot and do not intend to operate my aircraft outside of what is approved and I consider to be safe. 

[Hank]

Antares--My 70 model also has the full length rudder, and my Owners Manual says to not spin it. Scroll up to the top, I posted those pages from the book. There's more to it than rudder size.

[DAVIDWH]

There was a previous video on this Mooney Space interviewing a Mooney factory test pilot.

 

He commented that he had spun with forward cg, spun with aft cg, spun with rt. tank empty and left tank full and also with left tank empty and rt. tank full. Then came his

prophetic quote:

 

"You know when you do these spins you have to go by yourself, cause no one will go with you".

 

Can't imagine why??

[EDNR-Cruiser]

Seems like some guys here mix up stalls, spirals and spins but nope, I wouldn't want to experience a real spin in a Mooney... - I don't feel like a a test pilot and I love life too much!
I did some stall practice when I transitioned to my Mooney and it was a different story than the stalls I experienced before in Cessnas and Pipers... - though the training was definitely a good one to show me how my Mooney signals early warnings I don't feel llke challenging the POH and the guys who wrote it...

I do the stall training regularly because I noticed that my Mooney "talks" to me about letting it go before the stall warning, especially when I'm banking more than 20°...

[mikefox]

"THE A/C WILL NOT ENTER A SPIN". what the heck are you smoking?????? Even with the ball centered if action isn't immediately taken to break the stall once the a/c starts to nose over in the stall the pilot following your advice is going for a hell of a ride.

I thought at one point a mooney would stall like a warrior/archer where as long as the ball is centered the yoke could be pulled all the way back and the air plane would stay level and buffet down gently like a leaf. Just try doing that in a mooney and your ass will he upside down in the spin cycle

You might be able to hold it in stall condition for a couple seconds but that ball won't stay centered for long as the rudder input will increasingly become more to keep the wings from dropping and then ya know what happens? The rudder eventually runs out of authority and weeeeeeeeeeeeee!

 

This is entirely true.  In order to enter a spin, there must be two ingedients:  a stalled condition on both wings, one more than the other, AND yaw. Without both, the A/C will not spin.  Period.  It is entirely possible to hold most aircraft in a stall with aft elevator, and use the rudder to maintain wings level in the descent.  In fact I have practiced this in Decathalons and other aerobatic aircraft - a great demonstration!

[FloridaMan]

Antares--My 70 model also has the full length rudder, and my Owners Manual says to not spin it. Scroll up to the top, I posted those pages from the book. There's more to it than rudder size.

 

Interesting. My '67 "POH" (which is smaller than most automobile sales literature) was not nearly as descriptive. It just says something about putting in correct spin recovery input. 

[ArtVandelay]

 I have had the left wing drop to about 90 degrees during a partial flap, gear down stall, but I believe that was due to asymmetric fuel load (I had run the right dry in anticipation of opening up the tank the following week). Even in that case, opposing rudder and forward elevator brought about the desired result in a comfortable way and in less than 500 ft.

 

My experience with my first power off stall during my transition training was the same, I did the forward elevator, but the CFI took the airplane controls and actually did the recovery. Is that full right rudder?

[FloridaMan]

I have a feeling -- and, granted, my plane is well-rigged and I've never had it surprise me -- that the unpredictability may be caused by the fact that the Mooney stays relatively coordinated through normal phases of flight, but under power, P-factor becomes much more pronounced. 

[Ftlausa]

I have done a number of spins in the Pitts and in a Zlin, and frankly I find them quite fun.  I have not spun my M20J, but I have experienced the very quick Mooney wing drop (even when coordinated) during my Mooney transition training.  It was clear that the transition instructor was concerned about not getting in a spin in the Mooney, and I have to say that the break and wing drop was pretty strong even while coordinated.  I can see how someone could get themselves in trouble if not coordinated or if they delayed recovery.  That said, I would like to see how the Mooney recovers from a spin, but just not in my plane, at low altitude and without a parachute.   

[Alan Fox]

It doesn't...

[John Pleisse]

Today during my  flight review I spun da Mooney.  I was doing a power off stall and before I knew it the ariplane entered a spin very qucikly and abruptly. The power was off, gear down and half flaps.  Trust me the picture you see out the front screen is not one I want to see again. We were at '5,500 and made one  rotation and recovered with full right rudder and a very swift  and foreceful full forward yoke inpit.  Looked at the a altimeter and it read 5,000'.  Both the check ride pilot and myself could not believe we only lost '500'.  Needless to say I have a new found respect for 51AM and now know why spins are prohibited in Mooneys. I have had this airplane for 16 years and this was a first and I hope last spin recovery I have to perform in any mooneyt.

 

I find only 500 ft, unbelievable. If it was a spin, it should have been more. Here's a great example of a supposed spin, that is really an aggravated stall, flayling the yoke, into a dive/spiral. (3:24) We posted and discussed this a few years back.

 

 

[Alan Fox]

I watched this , and it is nothing like the spin I encountered ....It looks like when it broke , he was quick enough to keep it flying and kind of rolled it out...... 

[John Pleisse]

On all power on stalls, my initial CFI (I was a teenager) let me roll it until I learned to stay coordinated. Tough love. We went sideways numerous times and on a cross controlled stall (that's how old I am) we went inverted. Tough love....

[carusoam]

John,

You were a teenager, how old was your CFI?

Best regards,

-a-

[twall001]

Thank you all,

I'm chkd out 152 72 and 82. To buy I have looked at the mooney for alot of reasons and stuctural integrity is one of my interests. I have seen folded up Cessnas not so bad. Pipers seem to be nothing left ever, same with bo's and all I hear is break up break up! I have 178 hrs and 10+ instument, watch and read everything I can. The Dakota still is a big want along with the F35A or V33 a choice 182 with a little more ponies or the 201 mostly I think a Ranger with johnson bar gear and manual flaps tricked out like new. wife does not like the high wing to much but I will talk her into it if an instructor tells me I have to build more time. Lost a friend in a P180 stall spin so in my mind I worry survivability of the Dakota. Bottom line (get to the point man) is after reading your comments it seems every aircraft has its things and if operated outside the envelope it will bite you. I just cant get all the accident numbers or I need to look elswhere than google. I am looking at 4 manufactures and you scared me almost off the mooney but than again? .... any comments on these 4 aircraft? Like the low wing...Help us Obi-Wan Kenobi Your our only hope. Thanks again, Tom

 

[201er]

17 minutes ago, twall001 said:

 I am looking at 4 manufactures and you scared me almost off the mooney but than again? 

This isn’t the problem.

 

18 minutes ago, twall001 said:

I have 178 hrs and 10+ instument,

This is.

 

In other words it’s not the plane you pick but how you use it. Investing in more experience/instruction will go a longer way than choosing a plane based on stall characteristics and things like that. Finishing your instrument rating will go a long way too. Such a long way that you’re practically uninsurable in a Mooney without it. Instrument rating, good transition training, practice and proficiency, a healthy respect of the rules (rules of FAA and rules of nature), and ongoing Mooney learning like Mooney Summit and PPP courses are ways to strongly shift things toward your favor.

[twall001]

Thanks That is what I expected  just needed to hear it (snap out of it man)

[N201MKTurbo]

A properly rigged Mooney has very benign stall behavior and good slow flight behavior. I find them easy to recover from just about every stall.

When I first bought this Mooney, I did a flight review at night. We did the first stall and the plane almost snap rolled. I told my instructor we were done doing stalls and he agreed. I fixed the rigging and it now behaves very well.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, twall001 said:

Thank you all,

I'm chkd out 152 72 and 82. To buy I have looked at the mooney for alot of reasons and stuctural integrity is one of my interests. I have seen folded up Cessnas not so bad. Pipers seem to be nothing left ever, same with bo's and all I hear is break up break up! I have 178 hrs and 10+ instument, watch and read everything I can. The Dakota still is a big want along with the F35A or V33 a choice 182 with a little more ponies or the 201 mostly I think a Ranger with johnson bar gear and manual flaps tricked out like new. wife does not like the high wing to much but I will talk her into it if an instructor tells me I have to build more time. Lost a friend in a P180 stall spin so in my mind I worry survivability of the Dakota. Bottom line (get to the point man) is after reading your comments it seems every aircraft has its things and if operated outside the envelope it will bite you. I just cant get all the accident numbers or I need to look elswhere than google. I am looking at 4 manufactures and you scared me almost off the mooney but than again? .... any comments on these 4 aircraft? Like the low wing...Help us Obi-Wan Kenobi Your our only hope. Thanks again, Tom

 

You’ve got more than enough time to fly a Mooney, they’re not difficult to fly.  Far to many posters here pedal the myth of how difficult they are to fly and only God himself should be your instructor.

Find a competent instructor with time in your desired model and do the required training, put in a bunch of hours learning to fly your Mooney then do your instrument rating.