4 bounced landings in a row

[SpamPilot]

Surely there must be many dozens of threads on this topic.  But I'm new to the forum, and searches on "landing technique" or even just "landing" result in no hits.

 

In my short (250 hours) flying career to date, I have only had one bounced landing that resulted in a go-around.  Now 20 hours into having a Mooney M20F, including 15 dual received, with nary a problem other than getting the aircraft slowed down from altitude, I get four bounced landings/go-arounds in a row.

 

I had previously read all the advice I could find on landing Mooneys.  I am well aware that speed control is essential.  Wind was calm, the runway was plenty long enough, the plane was light (me and less than half fuel).  The first three times I came in over the numbers at the recommended 80 MPH/70 knots (yes, I was paying close attention to airspeed).  I had a nicely controlled sink rate, low power, full flaps, and full nose up trim, flared, brought power to idle, held the nose off as the plane slowed, and... boink!  The plane dropped, but only by a matter of inches.  In my Cherokee, the struts would have dissipated the energy of such a small drop, but the rubber discs of the Mooney sprung the plane back into the air.  The bounce was small enough that I felt comfortable letting the plane settle back to the runway, but on the second touch it boinked again and I was out of there.  On the last attempt, I figured I was light enough that I could come in over the numbers at 75 MPH.  The plane boinked once, I let it settle, it just barely boinked a second time, so I risked letting it settle a third time (please do not follow this example), it boinked again and I could tell a porpoise was starting, so I got the heck out of there.

 

The airstrip was new to me in this plane (though I have landed a Cherokee there many times before) and is known to have a few undulations in the surface.  Flying light in the Mooney was also new to me.  At no time did the stall horn go off.

 

I think the most likely explanation is that I still don't have the sight picture quite right.  I definitely don't have the feel for setting the plane down gently after a small initial bounce the way I would in a Cherokee.  I have already scheduled more time with my instructor.  Would love to hear words of advice (encouragement?) from others on the forum...

[Marauder]

I find looking down the runway's full length and using my peripheral vision helps a lot to gauge the correct flare height. If you are accustomed to landing Pipers and Cessnas and using their visual reference, you will find that you are flaring too high. I think of landing a Mooney like Fred Flinstone with his feet hanging out below. You feel that low when in the right altitude/attitude.

 

Are you hearing the stall warning at all? You should be at the correct speeds but if you are not hearing the stall warning, I am wondering if your airspeeds are off. When I do it right, the stall goes off just as my wheels are touching. I find that landing the Mooney has been easier than other planes as long as you keep the speed nailed.

[carqwik]

Too much airspeed on landing creates the bounce - the wing is still producing lift.  I don't know the particulars of the M20F in terms of proper speeds but surely you're putting the wheels on the ground before the plane is ready to quit flying.  A few things to check - make sure the throttle is at idle, your ASI is properly calibrated, and you're hearing the stall horn right before the wheels touch. Oh yea, the approach speed in the POH is at max landing weight....if you're lighter, then the proper airspeed is less...

[aaronk25]

+1 if your light on fuel and its just you in the plane then 80mph over the numbers is to fast unless you hold it off for a long time.....it's amazing how weight changes things.

If I'm at max weight when landing, Still 80mph but a little throttle to arrest the sink rate prior to flare, if needed.

Be carefull, and no replacment for seat time keep flying and remember protect the nose, protect the nose, protect the nose. The main gear is strong it will take the abuse the nose won't.

Aaron

[Marauder]

Aaron points out something that you should know. If you put the plane down going too fast, you will bounce it off the nose wheel. The plane will go into a porpoise. I was told and never experienced this, but if you let it porpoise 3 times, the third time you are doing a prop and/or engine overhaul. I have porpoised it and it will get your attention. Protect the nose, protect the nose, protect the NOSE!

 

A couple of examples:

 

[jetdriven]

80 MPH in a light M20F is still a little fast for over the numbers. Try reducing power a little sooner, allow the speed to bleed to 72-74 MPH as you begin the roundout, and hold it off a bit longer. You usually will hear a stall horn for a second before touchdown. Report back with findings.

[Bob_Belville]

I think you're still too fast for the landing weight. Warning, cliche follows: "Mooneys hate to quit flying!"  

[Mooneymite]

I've transitioned several guys to my C model, though I don't pretend to be a Mooney guru.

What I've found helps after they have the basics of proper airspeed control are:

1. Begin by using less than full flaps.

2. Make sure they've got enough back trim on final....usually a tad more than the "takeoff" trim.

3. Make sure they get a chirp (or two...) out of the stall warning horn prior to settling onto the runway.

4. Make sure they keep plenty of back pressure on the elevator during roll-out.

5. Don't do touch and goes.

#3 and 4 may have to be modified a bit if it's gusty/windy.

[Mooneymite]

Dup

[FlyDave]

A few things:

 

1. Make sure you select "Forums" next to the search field to get results. It may say "This Topic" or "Members" so change that to "Forums" and your searches will reap rewards.
2. It sounds like your site picture isn't working for you. While taxiing as well as looking down the runway get the site picture of the plane on the ground. You don't need the nose a lot higher than that. But that sight picture is very important so you don't start to flare 3 feet above the runway.
3. Here is a link to another thread on landings. I've listed my technique but others have their own:

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/2351-tips-on-landing-a-mooney-bravo/?hl=+kias%20+flydave

 

Good luck and let us know how things go.

[Hank]

My C lands beautifully with Takeoff flaps, but the only F I've ever landed did much better with Full flaps. The sight picture is the same, pattern speeds are the same . . .

 

Figure on 75 mph over the numbers at gross, then slow down 5 mph for every 300 lbs below gross you are. Solo and half tanks, shoot for no more than 70 mph over the numbers.

 

I generally pull throttle to idle somewhere on final, once I know I can glide to the runway. Took a Piper pilot to ride recently to see how well his 6'4" body fit into a Mooney, and he commented that pulling the throttle to idle [before I cleared the trees] did nothing to my glide, but in the Cherokees he flies it makes the plane settle so he waits until he's over the runway. When I visit a nearby airport [KDWU, Ashland, KY], the pattern for 28 has base leg extending over the Ohio River and turning final, with the riverbank reappearing on short final; it is not uncommon to pull the throttle while still over the water. Mooneys are great gliders, test it out with some ground clearance sometime.

 

Also, my stall horn squalls on landing, before the wheels squeek. If I can figure out how to post a video using my Droid tablet [that the tablet won't play! Recorded using a Sony digital camera], I have a nice landing video from the base-to-final turn to all three wheels rolling.

[rbridges]

I glanced at the previous posts, but are you keeping the yoke back after the mains touch?  I got into a bad habit of not keeping much back pressure, and my nose wheel bounced.  I have a C model, but I do 60-65 knots/70ish mph on short final and over the numbers.

 

Like everyone said, it's too much energy when the front tire hits.  Just got to figure out why.

[GaryP1007]

Bob, thanks for the Boston Strong profile pic.  It's very sad up here.

[jlunseth]

Well, I have to disagree that speed is the issue.  Ground speed maybe, but airspeed no.  I can land my 231 at 90 in gusty crosswinds.  There are typically two things that cause a bounce, and I will add a controversial third.  First, the pilot fails to ease the nose up on landing and the plane hits flat or nose first.  That guarantees a bounce and a porpoise.  Second, and maybe a bigger factor with the later models with heavier engines, is the the pilot's failure to hold the nose back at the moment of touchdown.  The common reaction is to let the yoke move forward at the moment of touchdown.  That creates a bounce in which the mains hit first, and then the nose levers down and hits, and if hard enough you are in the air again and porpoising.  You need to land on the mains only.  If you land on the mains only, it is possible to have a small bounce, but it will always settle down quickly rather than porpoising, and it is the porpoising that creates prop strikes.  If anything, I add a little extra back pressure at that moment when the mains touch to be sure the nose wheel stays off the ground.

 

The third and controversial cause of bounces is the POH and flawed teaching.  Unless you are doing a calm wind landing or a short field landing, there is no good reason to do as we are taught and use full flaps.  In my aircraft, it makes the plane way too light on its feet and any excuse to go back in the air and it will do just that.  I land with takeoff (half) flaps most of the time, in calm or short field conditions with full flaps, and in gusty crosswind conditions no flaps.  Traditionalists go ahead and rag on me all you want, it is the way to land my aircraft. 

 

My perspective is perhaps part of the reason for my feelings on this.  I live in the midwest where we are nearly always landing in gusty crosswind or headwind conditions.  Calm or steady wind landings are not the norm.  I would say 10% of the time I land no flaps in strong winds, 10% full flaps for a short field or calm winds, and the other 80% takeoff flaps and 85 knots short final, with the airspeed decaying to about 75 at the numbers. 

 

It is possible to save a bounced landing.  Add a small amount of power and keep the nose up, then let the aircraft settle back down on the mains only.  It should go without saying that you need to insure that you have sufficient runway to do this, but a Mooney when handled properly will land in a surprisingly small length. 

 

So my diagnosis is that you are landing too flat, either on the nose or on three wheels.  It is odd, but I think everyone goes through spates where they just are not seeing the landing properly.  Make a little more effort to raise the nose when you are within a few feet of the runway, and if it bounces a little on the mains but you have kept the nose off the ground all will be good.

[mooniac58]

As stated here in other posts, my 2 cents would be:

 

- Speed.  A Mooney will not forgive you for a touchdown at even 5-7 KTS above the sweet spot.  A bounce/porpoise situation will be imminent. Assuming your stall horn is setup correctly, it should chirp before touchdown...this is true with most of my "greaser landings" - which might make up about 60-70% of my total landings, most of the rest leave room for desire and these days a very small fraction involve bouncing or porpoising - but I also have about 700 hours in my M20J so me and her are pretty intimate these days.

- It is kind of cheating - but no or half flaps usually results in a pretty silky smooth landing for me.  Sometimes if I have a crazy long runway (like my home field KSAF) and passengers on board I will leave out the flaps or just put in a little to impress.  Without flaps I can usually land in such a manner that you never even feel the reconnection with the ground.  Very hard to pull that off with full flaps - at least for me.

- My rule is to never give back anything to the yoke once in the flare...what I pull back, stays back and sometimes I might have to rectify with power if I get to low/slow but my initial CFI beat this one into me.

 

Good luck!

[HRM]

I tend to have a string of greasers getting oohs and ahhs from the tower and then BAM! I get a slammer. I guess the slammers are my plane's way of saying "Pay attention!"

 

Anyway, Don Kaye peddles a very good DVD on landing Mooney's for $20--I thought it was worth it. Browse here.

[jlunseth]

- My rule is to never give back anything to the yoke once in the flare...what I pull back, stays back and sometimes I might have to rectify with power if I get to low/slow but my initial CFI beat this one into

 

Ditto.  Sometimes it takes a strong hand to hold it back, because the plane wants it, but if you let the nose lever down you will always get a messy landing.

[jeff hodgson]

Whats the verdict about landing with speedbrakes out?

[mikerocosm]

You say "full nose-up trim" . . . Is that what you really mean? I would take that to mean you've got the aircraft primed to leap back into the air on any bounce at all. While I'm always thinking I should dial in more nose-up than I end up with, I almost always have very close to take-off trim by the time I actually put it on the runway. There are many paths, however . . .

[kerry]

Well, I have to disagree that speed is the issue.  Ground speed maybe, but airspeed no.  I can land my 231 at 90 in gusty crosswinds.  There are typically two things that cause a bounce, and I will add a controversial third.  First, the pilot fails to ease the nose up on landing and the plane hits flat or nose first.  That guarantees a bounce and a porpoise.  Second, and maybe a bigger factor with the later models with heavier engines, is the the pilot's failure to hold the nose back at the moment of touchdown.  The common reaction is to let the yoke move forward at the moment of touchdown.  That creates a bounce in which the mains hit first, and then the nose levers down and hits, and if hard enough you are in the air again and porpoising.  You need to land on the mains only.  If you land on the mains only, it is possible to have a small bounce, but it will always settle down quickly rather than porpoising, and it is the porpoising that creates prop strikes.  If anything, I add a little extra back pressure at that moment when the mains touch to be sure the nose wheel stays off the ground.

 

The third and controversial cause of bounces is the POH and flawed teaching.  Unless you are doing a calm wind landing or a short field landing, there is no good reason to do as we are taught and use full flaps.  In my aircraft, it makes the plane way too light on its feet and any excuse to go back in the air and it will do just that.  I land with takeoff (half) flaps most of the time, in calm or short field conditions with full flaps, and in gusty crosswind conditions no flaps.  Traditionalists go ahead and rag on me all you want, it is the way to land my aircraft. 

 

My perspective is perhaps part of the reason for my feelings on this.  I live in the midwest where we are nearly always landing in gusty crosswind or headwind conditions.  Calm or steady wind landings are not the norm.  I would say 10% of the time I land no flaps in strong winds, 10% full flaps for a short field or calm winds, and the other 80% takeoff flaps and 85 knots short final, with the airspeed decaying to about 75 at the numbers. 

 

It is possible to save a bounced landing.  Add a small amount of power and keep the nose up, then let the aircraft settle back down on the mains only.  It should go without saying that you need to insure that you have sufficient runway to do this, but a Mooney when handled properly will land in a surprisingly small length. 

 

So my diagnosis is that you are landing too flat, either on the nose or on three wheels.  It is odd, but I think everyone goes through spates where they just are not seeing the landing properly.  Make a little more effort to raise then nose when you are within a few feet of the runway, and if it bounces a little on the mains but you have kept the nose off the ground all will be good.

I agree.

[Hank]

Put me in the "land with Takeoff flaps" camp. I also notice taxiing in that my trim is usually very close to the Takeoff mark.

 

When the wind is calm, I actually have trouble landing, generally too high, and need full flaps to get down and usually float and land long. My initial CFI beat into me with the Skyhawk, 10º on downwind, 20º on base, adjust as needed on final.

 

My Owner's Manual for the Mooney says to add Takeoff flaps no later than base leg [i use downwind before dropping gear to descend], and adjust flaps as needed on final to maintain glide slope. But I rarely take any out unless I add too much on final. Our flaps are not very effective, so that doesn't happen often.

 

Then watch your speed—80 over the numbers with the throttle not at idle is too fast and too much power for an F, although it may work well for a 231.

 

Good luck and enjoy your new ride!

[Glenn]

Two additional things to consider, as if you needed more.

• Is your engine idle set too high.  750 is max 600 is better.
• Think in terms of skimming it on.  Be surprised when it touches down.

When my landings have gone south, I have had luck practicing slow flight at altitude for a half hour or so, just to refresh my feel for the controls at minimum speed.

 

Good luck.

[chrisk]

Whats the verdict about landing with speedbrakes out?

I have manual speed brakes.  For me, I do not land with them out.  One more thing to deal with if a go around is required.

[scottfromiowa]

If you can not land with full flaps without bouncing hard...this is an excuse to practice. Not good people, not good. Don't sell partial and or no flap landings as what to do...been there done that. Master your birds...

[aaronk25]

+1 there may be reasons to land with less than full flaps but making the plane land better shouldn't be one. You should be able to cross numbers at 80mph or under at full gross put power to idle and grease the landing and adjust flare to do so.

My earlier post about putting in a touch of power during the flare was just to turn a firm landing into a greaser because the pilot screwed it up, not to be used as a preferred method....had to correct that I felt guilty.