1965 M20C Pilot Operating Manual needed

[Hank]

3 hours ago, steingar said:

 think about it, Mickey Mouse was invented in the 30's and still holds his copyright to this day.

Disney renewed their copyright regularly, before they were extended to two generations. 

Did anyone renew these copyrights before they expired? Which the Vintage ones did, before copyrights were lengthened. 

[Hank]

From copyright.gov :

What does copyright protect?

Copyright, a form of intellectual property law, protects original works of authorship including literary, dramatic, musical, and artistic works, such as poetry, novels, movies, songs, computer software, and architecture. Copyright does not protect facts, ideas, systems, or methods of operation, although it may protect the way these things are expressed. See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section "What Works Are Protected."

So our Manuals are facts, systems and methods of operation. Copyrightable? Find a lawyer. I lean towards "no" based on the above.

[carusoam]

You guys are making me look...

Where in the M20C’s POH is the copyright mark?

 

OK after a quick review of the POH dated October 1977... no hints of any trade marks, sales marks, or copyrights...

Not even a fake... put one here but not actually register it...

 

The point of these documents is to keep from allowing your customer (or end user) to get killed while operating the machinery your company built....

 

Either way...

• if you can afford it, buy a proper copy...
• if you can’t afford it, get a proper copy...
• Make an electronic copy to keep on your iPad...

Check with Mooney and see if they have the electronic version available.  They have been known to pass along support manuals.

Call Mooney directly and ask...

It would suck to lose another MSer because he didn’t check the T/O limitations on a high DA day...

I would pay some serious Apple dollars for an App that calculates T/O distance like the POH does... same limitations, 1/10^th the effort.

People would bang out WnB and T/O calcs without fail, often, easily...

I am a big fan of protecting IP.  It is a great commercial challenge around the world.

I am a bigger fan of technical operations manuals for machinery.  Getting them into the hands of people that can use them is not very easy...

After decades of working with commercial machinery... I would see these nice machine manuals locked up in cabinets where the mechanics and operators couldn’t access them when the engineering staff wasn’t there....

Build the Knowledge, spread the knowledge, make money from the guy looking for convenience...  in the App Store....  

Does Cessna have an App for that?  They have soft cover books for their POH....

It makes no commercial sense to try to make a few bucks selling manuals... unless selling manuals is your business model... Amazon, Essco, or any other printer...

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

[steingar]

Don't have to have a mark indicating copyright.  Few works of art have them, yet they're all copyrighted.  Like I said, they are almost certainly protected under US copyright statues, though I have to admit I'm fuzzy about the statute of limitations and whether they've entered the public domain.  

[Norian]

On 11/8/2012 at 12:18 PM, rbridges said:

 

You really have to appreciate the comradery on this forum.

Yes thats correct!!

[DXB]

I doubt Mooney has the slightest interest in pestering owners of its old planes or a niche website used by them over copyright infringement.  I imagine they grasp that their documentation is not being shared by us for profit but merely so we can help each other own and operate Mooney aircraft safely.  I also can't imagine that they would choose to view pdfs of their old manuals as a profit center and thus force us to go to the company to purchase individually.

I've made several such downloads here as well as uploads to this site, and I hope that type of activity continues. It leaves more money for avgas.  If that's not cool,  I'd best delete this post and go into hiding .

[steingar]

I have no doubt Mooney is aware of this, they can’t be blind to this site (heck, the CEO came into Oshkosh with the Caravan one year). Like I said, they either approve, don’t disapprove strongly enough to do anything, or have no legal standing to begin with.

[Igor_U]

Ten, maybe twelve years ago Mooney Co. (whatever it was called then) had a program where owners could get PDF copies of manuals for their plane. You had to register with your local MSC and, IIRC, pick up in person but it was free. It was really intended to promote MSC and it came on USB drive with new Mooney logo; I still have and it came with most (all?) pre J manuals.

I went to Via-Jet at KBVS and used their services after but they unfortunately closed. That location is now home of Heritage Flight museum founded by Apollo astronaut William Anders.

http://heritageflight.org/

If his name sounds familiar, he was the one who took famous Earthrise photo from Apollo 8.

A nice aircraft collection and worth visiting if you fly at PNW.

 

Edited June 8, 2018 by Igor_U

[Guest]

On 6/5/2018 at 10:09 PM, Hank said:

Mine says "Mooney Airplane Company Inc," which is bankrupt and gone decades ago. The name, logo and owners have changed multiple times, generally coincident with being bought after bankruptcy, which allowed the new owners to shed much of the debt. My plane was built, and my Owners Manual written, approved and issued, at least four changes in ownership ago. 

If the latest Mooney Co. / Corp. / Inc. / LLC is keeping up the copyrights on all publications issued by its numerous predecessors, they are several generations behind on updating them all to current standards. My Emergency section is two pages long, front and back of a single sheet, and spends a third of the space on alternator resets. There is one sentence about fires:  "In case engine fire, turn cabin heater off." Yeah, thanks for that--I'll also shut off the fuel selector, pull mixture to Idle / Cutoff, close the knee vents and pitch downward to try and blow out the fire, all while yelling Mayday, Mayday, Mayday into the radio. May even toggle the ELT if I have enough brain power left to think that much.

So I say the copyright went away about 17 years after either 1970 or the next version (I also have a 1975 version, which has some different techniques, different performance specs and differences in actual construction). So I'd say the copyright on mine expired somewhere between 1987 and 1992, unless the 1972-ish bankruptcy and sale(s) to Butler / Aerostar voided it out then. It's now 2018.

The Comanche series manuals are similar, some years ago someone wrote new ones for all models in the new GAMA format, they are FAA approved.

I would think that there is nothing stopping someone from doing the same for vintage Mooney models.

Clarence 

[ShuRugal]

I'm amazed that a debate about copyright has gone on so long without bringing up the fair-use clause...

 

https://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107

Quote

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright.

Distributing copies of equipment operations manuals amongst equipment operators seems to me to pretty easily covered by Teaching, Scholarship, or Research.

[0TreeLemur]

On 6/6/2018 at 11:19 PM, carusoam said:

OK after a quick review of the POH dated October 1977... no hints of any trade marks, sales marks, or copyrights...

Not even a fake... put one here but not actually register it...

The point of these documents is to keep from allowing your customer (or end user) to get killed while operating the machinery your company built....

Either way...

• if you can afford it, buy a proper copy...
• if you can’t afford it, get a proper copy...
• Make an electronic copy to keep on your iPad...

 

My question is this: is the 1977 M20C POH "better" than the 1967 M20C POH?  It seems that it should be much better because of the experience gained in that 11 years, and because it was largely the same airframe.   Does anyone have a pdf version?

Edited June 15, 2018 by Fred_2O
generality.

[carusoam]

Yes and yes...

 

there is a really updated M20C POH in the download area...

try that...

POHs were in development in the early 70s...

Best regards,

 

-a-

[0TreeLemur]

thanks,  @carusoam I didn't see that before.

[0TreeLemur]

10 minutes ago, carusoam said:

there is a really updated M20C POH in the download area...

 

That is fantastic.  I have always felt short-changed by the 1967 POH.   I might think about doing a document merge at some point.  Very similar a/c except the speeds are bit different + only elect. gear and a much more spacious panel.