Research on Mooney-Specific Training

[mooneyflyer]

I'm doing some research on what it means to get Mooney-specific training.

Specifically, if you have "complex" aircraft training and transition to a C, what specifically do you expect from a Mooney-specific instructor?  The J-bar is one... flying a laminar wing with high wind loading... flying precisely...  what else?

Ditto for a high performance transition... if you have flown high performance and transition to a longbody, say, what specific training for Mooney do you expect?

Thanks,

Phil

[M20E-1964]

I'd be interested as well. Most intructors I know put you in the Mooney, do steep turns, stalls, landings, procedures, power off scenerios, etc.

 

I never heard of anything to do with Laminar Flow or what that means to the pilot, or anything regarding the J-Bar. J-Bar seems simple - it's either up or down. The wing seems simple- fly the airplane.

I found the transition to the E model to be fairly painless and not a big deal. Watch airspeed and flare lower as you're lower the ground.

 

I'd be interesting in what official Mooney Instructors have to say...

[1964-M20E]

When I got my Mooney I went up with the instructor for several hours and we essentially went through the basics, incipient stalls, and slow flight, steep turns gear down and locked gear down and locked gear down and locked mixture and prop, power settings and emergency procedures.  Nothing was very Mooney specific basically it was getting checked out for a complex aircraft.  From my experience I had about 200 hours when I purchase the Mooney and I had been out of flying for about 15 years.  I had done about 8 hours with an instructor getting current about 6 months earlier and other miscellaneous flying.  I found that the Mooney at least my E model and one B model I flew were not that different from flying a 172 except for the speed and the gear.  Of course while test flying one Mooney the owner accused me of flying it like a Cessna and he told me I was gong too slow and to add some power.  However, going to an Ovation or a Bravo I think would be different.

Read the owners manual and understand it well before going up in the plane and read any article you can find about flying a Mooney.  Teach your instructor how to fly the plane and if you can teach him how to fly it then you know how to fly the airplane and he is there just to sign you off and keep you safe for the first few hours.

[Skywarrior]

Just speaking for myself, I found Bruce Jaeger's help immensely beneficial when I returned to flying after a 21-year layoff. I, too, was trying to fly the Mooney like a 172.

Doesn't work.

The 172 has much more drag - partly because of a thicker wing cross-section - and the combination of the extra drag and a higher-lift wing gave me fits when learning to land a Mooney. So, I'd say landings in a Mooney are the main area where you'd benefit from an instructor who has a lot of Mooney experience.

Another area is stalls. With a lower-drag wing, a Mooney tends to break into a more-pronounced stall when it does break. For ex., a few weeks ago, I was on final for landing, into a 25-kt headwind. The wind suddenly let up, so my airspeed dropped by 25 kts. The nose *immediately* dropped, and I had a windshield full of pine trees. Recovery was straightforward. But, I remember that there was no warning, no 'nibbling', no 'chatttering', no buffeting. Just "Dum-de-dum-dum... WHOA!!!"

I would recommend to anyone starting to fly Mooneys to go with a Mooney-experienced CFI - definitely.

[Parker_Woodruff]

If the student has no Mooney experience, I try to focus on Mooney systems and really hammer out some stuff in the POH prior to flying.

There's important stuff that needs to be explained, such as the latch on the emergency gear system, V-speeds, and other items.

[jlunseth]

+1 to Skywarrior's post.  I have not seen a 25 knot loss of airspeed while low in a Mooney, thankfully, but I have seen a 15 knot loss on takeoff in a Warrior and it gets your attention even if you make immediate adjustment for it. 

I have to say I am not an instructor, but from what I have seen and the aircraft I read there are model specific differences.  The C's - J's do fly somewhat more like a Cessna.  Speeds are higher and it is important to learn to manage speed, but some of the same tools that are used in Cessnas and Pipers for that purpose are available.  Slips are imprudent in the longbodies, and the evidence is that they are an issue in the K's also, so a forward slip to lose altitude on landing, without increasing airspeed significantly, is not the greatest strategy.  The somewhat related issue of cross controlled stalls in the longbodies is also an issue, and I do not do them in my K.  

The MAPASF teaches slower approaches, they like a landing speed of 75 which prevents overshooting.  I find I am far more likely to face gusty and stiff crosswinds on landing than I am to come close to overshooting, so I tend to fly faster approaches and landings, it provides a greater airspeed cushion, and it also gives the pilot more control authority to counteract crosswinds.  I generally use only one notch of flaps and I am generally at 85 knots across the fence, and often keep the speed up to 90 at touchdown when strong gusts or crosswinds are present.   My own experience is that touching a Mooney down at these speeds and in difficult conditions is a more difficult skill than a short field landing, and given that Mooneys are often used for long range cruising where weather at the intended point of landing is not always predictable several hours in advance, these landings are a more useful skill than shortfields and soft fields. 

[mooneyflyer]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

If the student has no Mooney experience, I try to focus on Mooney systems and really hammer out some stuff in the POH prior to flying.

There's important stuff that needs to be explained, such as the latch on the emergency gear system, V-speeds, and other items.

[mooneyflyer]

Quote: Skywarrior

Just speaking for myself, I found Bruce Jaeger's help immensely beneficial when I returned to flying after a 21-year layoff. I, too, was trying to fly the Mooney like a 172.

Doesn't work.

The 172 has much more drag - partly because of a thicker wing cross-section - and the combination of the extra drag and a higher-lift wing gave me fits when learning to land a Mooney. So, I'd say landings in a Mooney are the main area where you'd benefit from an instructor who has a lot of Mooney experience.

Another area is stalls. With a lower-drag wing, a Mooney tends to break into a more-pronounced stall when it does break. For ex., a few weeks ago, I was on final for landing, into a 25-kt headwind. The wind suddenly let up, so my airspeed dropped by 25 kts. The nose *immediately* dropped, and I had a windshield full of pine trees. Recovery was straightforward. But, I remember that there was no warning, no 'nibbling', no 'chatttering', no buffeting. Just "Dum-de-dum-dum... WHOA!!!"

I would recommend to anyone starting to fly Mooneys to go with a Mooney-experienced CFI - definitely.

[Immelman]

- Slow flight and stalls, in various configurations and attitudes. You want to be able to pick up on the cues the airplane is giving you ahead of time as well as any bad habits the particular airplane has

- Descent planning; you're now in a lower-drag machine that picks up speed quicly going downhill. How to get from altitude to the (low) gear speed in the pattern perfectly, while being kind to the engine

- Planning speeds ahead of time (i.e. based on weight, configuration, and wind conditons) to achieve consistently good landings

- General POH, systems, walkaround knowledge and associated tips that will help reduce maintenance expense and overall cost of ownership. This is where that Mooney-specific knowledge will come through. Examples of things might include a discussion of the common wear items in the nosegear and how to evaluate those, info about the nose gear truss and how it can get bent by ground personel.

- For the owner-pilot, further hands on info: How to get the cowl on and off, what to look for in a general engine once-over. A discussion on spare parts and tools to carry. No I am not an A&P, but I have learned an awful lot in my Mooney tenure and while this above-and-beyond normal checkout stuff, I think its worth passing on what I've learned, even if that means a referral for the owner to bother an A&P to train them as needed in a few common areas.

Just some ideas from an E model owner & CFI/CFII

[aviatoreb]

Quote: jlunseth

 I generally use only one notch of flaps and I am generally at 85 knots across the fence, and often keep the speed up to 90 at touchdown when strong gusts or crosswinds are present.   My own experience is that touching a Mooney down at these speeds and in difficult conditions is a more difficult skill than a short field landing, ..

[Immelman]

A final thought on speeds: The (radical) concept of 1.3x stall speed + 1/2 gust factor for final approach works really well in a Mooney. The trick is to not neglect weight when figuring out what that speed is. In my E it means a final approach speed is anywhere from 72-82mph if I use full flaps.

[carusoam]

The advantage of mooney specific training is the competent demonstration of proper system uses and limits.

It's not a requirement, just money well spent.  My instructor was trained at the factory and included IFR flight as part of the training, VOR, GPS, AP, and speed breaks, things my M20C didn't have.

Not required, just good training.  You will pay more than minimum, and get more too.  Right up there with using an MSC for maintenance.....

-a-

[gregwatts]

Quote: mooneyflyer

I'm doing some research on what it means to get Mooney-specific training.

Specifically, if you have "complex" aircraft training and transition to a C, what specifically do you expect from a Mooney-specific instructor? The J-bar is one... flying a laminar wing with high wind loading... flying precisely... what else?

Ditto for a high performance transition... if you have flown high performance and transition to a longbody, say, what specific training for Mooney do you expect?

Thanks,

Phil

[jetdriven]

Quote: mooneyflyer

Parker, can you be more specific about "Mooney systems".  The steam gauges are essentially similar to other complex or high performance systems.  Ditto for NavComs, APs, GPS, electric gear, etc.

Reading and "knowing" the POH is also common to all complex and high performance aircraft.

The latch on the emergency gear system is in the pre-flight checklist, which any PIC should read and adhere to in the POH.  Ditto for V-speeds.

Still struggling with the difference between a competent Complex/High Performance CFI and a Mooney CFI.

Thanks, phil

[Hank]

Quote: mooneyflyer

Good story... and that's why it's SOP to add half of the gust factor to your approach speed.  This is not Mooney-specific.  This is SOP for pretty much all single engine aircraft in gusty conditions.  I think you needed complex/High Performance CFI, but your example is not Mooney-specific. Still struggling with things a Mooney-specific CFI does that a good complex/High Perf CFI would not do.

Phil

[Immelman]

Quote: jetdriven

 Neither the Bonanza nor the Mooney pilot would ever take me up on the offer to fly that "other brand's rattling POS who should have never escaped the factory", but the offer stands

[jlunseth]

Quote: aviatoreb

Are you able to touchdown at 90?  If I ever find myself trying to flare at 90 I would float for a very long time.  If I tried to touch down anyway at that speed then I would porpoise and risk a prop strike.

[mooneyflyer]

Quote: jetdriven

Parker, can you be more specific about "Mooney systems".  The steam gauges are essentially similar to other complex or high performance systems.  Ditto for NavComs, APs, GPS, electric gear, etc.

Reading and "knowing" the POH is also common to all complex and high performance aircraft.

The latch on the emergency gear system is in the pre-flight checklist, which any PIC should read and adhere to in the POH.  Ditto for V-speeds.

Still struggling with the difference between a competent Complex/High Performance CFI and a Mooney CFI.

Thanks, phil

[mooneyflyer]

Quote: gregwatts

 

I think the term "Mooney specific" is more directed at the quirks and nuances and idiosyncrasies of the Mooney. How the Mooney will respond in certain situations can be much different than other aircraft you may have flown. Just the way you sit in a Mooney gives you a different perspective.....you sit in a Cessna, but you wear a Mooney. Power management for speed control is an issue for many pilots....these things don't like to slow down.....so you have to plan descents so that you don't shock cool the engine and you don't find yourself in the pattern still too fast to get the gear down. IMHO....most gear ups are because the Mooney was traveling faster than the pilot.

An instructor with Mooney experience is well worth the cost as opposed to you finding some of these things out on your own.

 

My opinion only!

[jetdriven]

A 172RG or Arrow does not descend like a Mooney.  Even an M20J is 165 KIAS and takes 4 miles to lost 1000'.  An Arrow descends much slower and steeper all things considered. 172 RG even slower. 

Don't rely on "routines" to save your bacon. Checklist, visual confirmation, and even in the 747 over the fence I look, flaps down, gear down, carb heat on......

[jlunseth]

And what's with that Bonanza v. Mooney stuff?  Both great airplanes... with different features...

[fantom]

Quote: mooneyflyer

.....I'm still thinking a good/competent CFI with complex/high performance experience can transition a pilot just as good as an equally competent Mooney-specific instructor...

[gregwatts]

Quote: mooneyflyer

 

I think the term "Mooney specific" is more directed at the quirks and nuances and idiosyncrasies of the Mooney. How the Mooney will respond in certain situations can be much different than other aircraft you may have flown. Just the way you sit in a Mooney gives you a different perspective.....you sit in a Cessna, but you wear a Mooney. Power management for speed control is an issue for many pilots....these things don't like to slow down.....so you have to plan descents so that you don't shock cool the engine and you don't find yourself in the pattern still too fast to get the gear down. IMHO....most gear ups are because the Mooney was traveling faster than the pilot.

An instructor with Mooney experience is well worth the cost as opposed to you finding some of these things out on your own.

 

My opinion only!

[M016576]

I think finding an instructor you relate to well and learn from easily is far more important than finding a "mooney specific" instructor (whatever/whoever that is).  There is a reason that light piston singles don't require type ratings.

With that in mind: A good instructor, regardless of their background, should do their homework (systems and procedures, as well as polling other IP's for type specific gotchas) prior to seeing their student.  If they don't, then you may want to find a new instructor!  

Each person learning how to fly a mooney will have a different experience.  For some, it will seem like its screaming across the earth and refuses to slow down.  For others, it will feel very...well... slow.  All depends on what else you fly and how you fly it.  A good instructor should also recognize your experience level and tailor your learning to that level.  

Again: the key is to find a good instructor.  Mooney time is a perk after that which you may or may not want to pay extra for.

[Robert C.]

Necromancy

 

 

 But after I read this thread I remembered the following article and felt it should be referenced so that others researching the topic would know about it.

 

Page 16 in the magazine: http://www.themooneyflyer.com/issues/MooneyFlyerAugust2012.pdf 

 

Robert