Mooney doesn’t clear runway fast enough

[MikeOH]

5 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

We might just be disagreeing on the semantic use of "objectively." I don't think of a decision based on a mistaken belief to be "objective."

IOW, "Well, I thought the light was green so I went into the intersection" is not an objective decision in my book. 

@midlifeflyer

A clever argument counselor, but the situation is NOT commutative!

This is an analogous situation where the guy stopped for a GREEN light because he thought it was RED; that is objectively always safe (let's not stretch this hypo to say that will get him rear-ended)

[Hank]

19 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

@midlifeflyer

A clever argument counselor, but the situation is NOT commutative!

This is an analogous situation where the guy stopped for a GREEN light because he thought it was RED; that is objectively always safe (let's not stretch this hypo to say that will get him rear-ended)

As long as he's not stopping for a "YIELD" sign . . . .

[hammdo]

29 minutes ago, Hank said:

As long as he's not stopping for a "YIELD" sign . . . .

Don’t get me started on that ugh… ;o)

-Don

[MikeOH]

7 hours ago, Shadrach said:

You takes you chances when you chose to follow your gut over ATC instructions.  ATC is sometimes wrong and a perceptive pilot might save his own skin as well as others by refusing to obey an instruction that puts their aircraft in harms way.  If you're going to do it, you better have good a reason.  "Feelings" are not a reason in my opinion.  "I feel unsafe rolling through a crossing runway with out permission" is a hazard that exists entirely in the pilot's mind unless there is visible activity on the crossing runway.

Your argument is that it's okay to use your 'gut' to save yourself and potentially others by breaking a rule that you may or may not know, but only if you turn out to be right.  Since you are okay with 'gut' as a valid reason but NOT okay with 'feelings', it would appear the only difference between 'gut' and 'feel' is that, AFTER the fact, it's whether you were right (gut) or wrong (feel)

That position taken to its logical conclusion is that it's only okay to ignore ATC instructions when you are 100% CERTAIN that a potentially dangerous situation will be avoided as analyzed AFTER the fact. "Gut feelings" don't work that way. To suppress those 'gut feelings' when they arise out of fear of ATC repercussions breeds the opposite of a safety culture, IMHO.  To be clear, I'm not advocating for wanton disregard for ATC!

[Shadrach]

11 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Your argument is that it's okay to use your 'gut' to save yourself and potentially others by breaking a rule that you may or may not know, but only if you turn out to be right.  Since you are okay with 'gut' as a valid reason but NOT okay with 'feelings', it would appear the only difference between 'gut' and 'feel' is that, AFTER the fact, it's whether you were right (gut) or wrong (feel)

That position taken to its logical conclusion is that it's only okay to ignore ATC instructions when you are 100% CERTAIN that a potentially dangerous situation will be avoided as analyzed AFTER the fact. "Gut feelings" don't work that way. To suppress those 'gut feelings' when they arise out of fear of ATC repercussions breeds the opposite of a safety culture, IMHO.  To be clear, I'm not advocating for wanton disregard for ATC!

Not at all. I allow for the fact that ATC may make a a mistake, and the pilot may be tasked with disregarding an instruction to save his own life.  I should’ve used the term guts instead of gut because it takes a lot of confidence to disregard an ATC instruction (or a tremendous amount of incompetence). Indeed the outcome does matter, it’s the difference between incompetently disobeying an ATC instruction and heroically saving yourself from an ATC mistake. If you’re going to do it, you’d better be right

[201Steve]

On 10/8/2024 at 3:44 PM, T. Peterson said:

Legally, when you are cleared to land you own the runway, but to needlessly dawdle or stop on the runway is unprofessional and selfish.

I’m not exonerating anyone but I doubt selfish is the driving behavior here. 
 

and every pilot seems unprofessional in a new environment, no matter how professional they might be in a familiar environment. And that’s my assumption, he was unfamiliar. 

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

Not at all.

....

If you’re going to do it, you’d better be right

I said, "That position taken to its logical conclusion is that it's only okay to ignore ATC instructions when you are 100% CERTAIN that a potentially dangerous situation will be avoided as analyzed AFTER the fact."

To which you responded, as above.

So, which is it, I'm confused?

[Hank]

11 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

I said, "That position taken to its logical conclusion is that it's only okay to ignore ATC instructions when you are 100% CERTAIN that a potentially dangerous situation will be avoided as analyzed AFTER the fact."

Who can tell BEFORE how their actions will be judged AFTER THE FACT?

[MikeOH]

14 minutes ago, Hank said:

Who can tell BEFORE how their actions will be judged AFTER THE FACT?

THAT is exactly my point!  You need to make the best call YOU feel for safety at that moment...we seem to have a culture that discourages that by pointing out the Hell you'll go through if you're wrong!  This poor guy stopped at a runway intersection because he was concerned for safety but was WRONG!  He was excoriated by the controller, another pilot, and here!

[T. Peterson]

1 hour ago, 201Steve said:

I’m not exonerating anyone but I doubt selfish is the driving behavior here. 
 

and every pilot seems unprofessional in a new environment, no matter how professional they might be in a familiar environment. And that’s my assumption, he was unfamiliar. 

I was making a general statement. I have no idea what the particulars are of this event. I have not even watched the video, but I have experienced landing behind professional pilots that were dawdling. I have also coached several of my First Officers over the years to be mindful of traffic behind us and to expedite getting off the runway.

 I’m not heated up over this incident one way or the other. If the gentleman was confused or disoriented, he owns the runway. If he was just oblivious, he could profit from a little goading to get his rear in gear.

[201Steve]

4 minutes ago, T. Peterson said:

f he was just oblivious, he could profit from a little goading to get his rear in gear.

For sure. 

[T. Peterson]

30 minutes ago, 201Steve said:

For sure. 

I might also add that over the years I myself have received some ATC goading, some deserved and some not. One way or another it was all in a days work and I tried to learn from my mistakes or show grace to other's mistakes. My only real regrets are the times I was not gracious.

[Echo]

This horse looks like Benito M hanging by his heels in front of an angry crowd.

[midlifeflyer]

15 hours ago, MikeOH said:

@midlifeflyer

A clever argument counselor, but the situation is NOT commutative!

This is an analogous situation where the guy stopped for a GREEN light because he thought it was RED; that is objectively always safe (let's not stretch this hypo to say that will get him rear-ended)

I'll go with yours, not  rear-ended, but he's blocking the 10 cars behind him. behind him. Safe? Perhaps. So is staying home in both cases. But I don't think I questioned the "safety" of blocking the runway or a taxiway or a road, and I think we're now back to unprofessional and foolish, aren't we?

[MikeOH]

2 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

I'll go with yours, not  rear-ended, but he's blocking the 10 cars behind him. behind him. Safe? Perhaps. So is staying home in both cases. But I don't think I questioned the "safety" of blocking the runway or a taxiway or a road, and I think we're now back to unprofessional and foolish, aren't we?

Which is both why we learn go-arounds and get sued if we rear end the guy in front of us...even if 5 planes have to go-around or 100 cars are behind someone stopped.

We're back to unprofessional and not knowing the AIM.

Stopping because you perceive a threat is not foolish.

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, MikeOH said:

Stopping because you perceive a threat is not foolish.

No, but I'd say perceiving a nonexistent threat is.

[PeteMc]

4 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

but he's blocking the 10 cars behind him. behind him

This thread has already diverged, so....   The one that gets me is you pull up to a 4-way stop and the person in front of you, with 5 cars behind you, is in no rush.  So they are being very polite and waving all the other cars through the Stop, even though they have passed their turn up twice!!!!! 

Almost as bad is when you're in a turn lane with no turn light.  When the light turns green, the first car does not pull forward into the intersection, but sits there at the line.  Then when the light turns yellow, they slowly start to move and they are the only one that gets through the light.  (You can't make this stuff up! )

 

[MikeOH]

30 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

No, but I'd say perceiving a nonexistent threat is.

Months later, in a courtroom, you have the luxury of analyzing every last detail to 'prove' the threat was nonexistent.  Not so much at the moment the decision needed to be made.

[201er]

Danbury tower completely losing it on everyone in the pattern:

 

[T. Peterson]

3 hours ago, PeteMc said:

This thread has already diverged, so....   The one that gets me is you pull up to a 4-way stop and the person in front of you, with 5 cars behind you, is in no rush.  So they are being very polite and waving all the other cars through the Stop, even though they have passed their turn up twice!!!!! 

Almost as bad is when you're in a turn lane with no turn light.  When the light turns green, the first car does not pull forward into the intersection, but sits there at the line.  Then when the light turns yellow, they slowly start to move and they are the only one that gets through the light.  (You can't make this stuff up! )

 

It’s worse than that! Most of the time the guy at the head of the line doesn’t turn on the yellow! I brought this up to my Texas friends and they said you are not supposed to pull into the intersection when waiting to turn left. I just thought, how did you miss that in drivers education? Then I thought that maybe things changed since 1974 when I took Driver’s Ed??…..or maybe Texas taught things differently?? I was taught to pull into the intersection (keeping the wheels straight to avoid being pushed into oncoming traffic in the event of a rear end collision) and then at least one car would be able make the left on the yellow.

I am so delighted with your post as I now know that if my thinking on this is crazy, I know at least one other crazy person that thinks the same thing!

[PeteMc]

3 hours ago, T. Peterson said:

I just thought, how did you miss that in drivers education?

You and me both!  I really want to stop by a Driver's Ed class and ask!!!  If you pull up into the intersection, usually the car behind you can pull partial into the intersection too.  And I don't know if it is true in all states, but in most states if you are IN the intersection when it turns red you are okay to continue.  

So even if you sit there until all the oncoming cars stop because of the red light, you can then still make your turn.  And you did NOT run a red light!  

 

Edited October 11, 2024 by PeteMc

[Sixstring2k]

I think for one we are missing more information about this incident because it might have not only being compressed but also had other communication relevant to the conversation cut out. 
And two this happens years ago, I was taxing a 777 out for a high power engine run one night and a vibe survey and when done we had being giving instructions to a remote area to park it for the night, as we are pulling up (I am taxing left seat) I see that the barriers(big concrete barriers like the ones that go in the middle of roads) that had being placed along the aircraft parking area perimeter look kind of close, and I made the other tech up front who is the guy marshaling us in to double check the clearance, I power the plane in after the clearance was check and area was clear and wing walkers in place, engine shut down and the stairs case set up, as I came down the other tech met me and was tick off at me because “we park 777s here all the time and i acted like I hadn’t taxi one before”, I replied to him that when I am on the left seat that plane is my responsibility not yours and I walked away, the following week I see one of the 777 in one of the hangars and they are setting up to remove the #2 engine, as I walk around the left side of #2 engine was a mess. It turns out that same parking spot guard rail from before that look funny to me had being pushed inward by the people who used the facility on the other side because they needed more room to move cargo, I didn’t smack that barrier because I made a decision and that day I learned that weather is regulations / rules or peer pressure, if you feel uncomfortable or unsafe stop and make sure. I have no problem with the pilot of the mooney stopping and to verify the situation because safety of flight is his responsibility and the flight doesn’t end until the engine shuts down and he exercised his right, we had guys 2 man crews going with the flow and look at all the near misses we being having lately, bend metal with plane going of the runway because taxing fast to get out of the runway, maybe if some of the crew, highly professionally train and experience crews would have stopped and think safety first maybe some of for near misses we being having would not have happened. 
This situation turn out to be just an inconvenience but maybe under different circumstances it could turn into a disaster and maybe when said disaster happens you know what the ntsb  investigation would conclude “all the pilot had to do is stop so is pilot error”. 
 

[T. Peterson]

16 hours ago, PeteMc said:

You and me both!  I really want to stop by a Driver's Ed class and ask!!!  If you pull up into the intersection, usually the car behind you can pull partial into the intersection too.  And I don't know if it is true in all states, but in most states if you are IN the intersection when it turns red you are okay to continue.  

So even if you sit there until all the oncoming cars stop because of the red light, you can then still make your turn.  And you did NOT run a red light!  

 

Absolutely correct!