Mooney Tailwind Tolerance

[201er]

How much tailwind are you willing to accept in a Mooney for takeoff and for landing? Let's say you are parked at one end where a tailwind takeoff or landing is super close but would require a long taxi to the other end for a headwind.

I understand runway length, airport elevation, crosswind component, gusts, and other factors can come into play. But strictly speaking for a direct steady tailwind at a moderate length runway with moderate departure obstacles, how much tailwind would you accept to avoid a long taxi to the other end?

[Hank]

If it's just a couple minutes' difference in taxi time, why accept any tailwind? 

How moderate is runway length? How moderate are the obstacles?

I don't like tailwinds in my Mooney. But I'd probably accept a little more on takeoff than on landing, assuming adequate length and no obstacles. Length is suspect, obstacles present? There's no need, suck it up and taxi some.

[McMooney]

depends on length of the runway, on a 2000ft runway, NOT MUCH AT ALL, my home 7000ft runway, shrug hurricane might be the limit

 

I"ve landed her at a big class b with something like 8 kts tailwind, she still was down on less than 1000ft

Edited September 1, 2024 by McMooney

[IvanP]

Preferrably none, but that may not always be feasible. UT25 (Monument Valley, UT) is a nice example of one-way in and one-way out airport, regardless of wind direction, due to terrain. Landed there with tailwind (probably less than 10kt) in my E model few years ago and it was a non-event. Did not try tailwind landing in a long body yet. Did couple of tailwind T/O in Bravo (about 10kts or so) with no issues. 

[201er]

Basically I won’t deliberately launch or land with a discernible tailwind. I voted 4 knots but it could just as well be 2 or 3. If the windsock is more than drooped down for calm wind, if the AWOS is reporting a direction and strength, if I know the winds aloft are from the same direction and also a tailwind, I would rather just taxi to the proper runway.

Wind calm but with the sock pointing tailwind is the one I wouldn’t taxi to the other end for or when the sock is slowly bouncing around different directions. Once the wind is enough to be clear where it coming from, I’d rather taxi and takeoff into the wind.

Just a 4 knot tailwind is 8 knots higher ground speed compared to landing the other way! Even if not dangerous, that’s more wear on tires, brakes, and landing gear.

But we also don’t get much practice or experience with tailwinds so it’s another risk factor. Doing a go-around with a tailwind can be quite hazardous. The wind reported on the ground might be a slight tailwind but in the air, the obstacles can be coming up quick with stronger winds.

[kortopates]

Maybe this is a geography thing, but out west, taking off with a tailwind is very common when it comes with a steep downhill gradient. So is landing uphill with a tail wind. 

[EricJ]

+1 that it depends on the gradient of the runway (uphill/downhill), and the terrain around the airport.     At a towered field you may not have a choice.    I think I landed with a 5+ knot tailwind the other day just because it was moving around a lot and I think they were trying to decide whether it was time to switch runways.   They switched not long after I landed.    It wasn't an issue, and I think I even wound up turning off at my usual exit...definitely touched down a bit further than usual, though.

 

[Danb]

Landed at west palm when Trump was president I believe around 10-12 knots, they gave me the shorter runway I mentioned the tailwind then got switched to the longer one, the smug controller said if you can’t land on a 10,000’ runway consider another airport, I noticed at the various FBO’s I was the only piston single on the tarmac, they obviously didn’t want a little plane to deal with, the smug controller said nice landing Mooney. Just after I landed they switched runways..
 

 

 

 

[Vance Harral]

  On 9/1/2024 at 8:53 PM, 201er said:

If the windsock is more than drooped down for calm wind, if the AWOS is reporting a direction and strength, if I know the winds aloft are from the same direction and also a tailwind, I would rather just taxi to the proper runway.

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Nothing wrong with that, but let me present you with a real-life scenario that requires some challenging ADM.

It's a busy day at uncontrolled KLMO (which it nearly always is).  You arrive at the airport the morning after your ski trip, listen to the AWOS, and winds are 160 at 5 knots, technically favoring runway 11 with a 3-knot headwind component.  You notice the pattern is full of aircraft using Runway 29.  Per your personal minimums, you broadcast on the CTAF, "Mooney is taxiing for runway 11".  Someone responds, "Traffic is using 29".  You call again that you're taxiing for 11, and no one responds.  You key up again from the runup area with, "Anyone want to switch runway direction?", and someone finally takes pity on you and says, "per local procedures, Runway 29 is favored in light winds" (there's an actual reason for this, but no explanation is offered to you on the CTAF).

How long will you sit in the runup area for Runway 11 waiting for reasonable spacing to take off, or for the winds to change?  5 minutes?  10?  30?

This is not a made-up scenario, it's real life at my home 'drome.  How principled are you?  Do you know if you can safely take off from the 4800' runway in your airplane, on that day, at your weight?

[Marc_B]

Colorado has a few mandatory tailwind if that’s what it takes. I.e. KGWS Glenwood Springs Rwy14/32 3305x50. To the north terrain rises quickly so the preferred approach is landing 32, departing 14. And for a mountain airport the runway is unusually short for Colorado. This is a place most pilots really have to do some calculations for. 

It’s also a great reason why a turbo Mooney is a great Colorado Mooney 

BTW Colorado Pilots Association puts on a great Mountain Flying Course every year. If you haven’t taken it, you absolutely should (the optional flight component includes a stop at GWS)!!

[AJ88V]

  On 9/1/2024 at 10:01 PM, Danb said:

Landed at west palm when Trump was president I believe around 10-12 knots, they gave me the shorter runway I mentioned the tailwind then got switched to the longer one, the smug controller said if you can’t land on a 10,000’ runway consider another airport, I noticed at the various FBO’s I was the only piston single on the tarmac, they obviously didn’t want a little plane to deal with, the smug controller said nice landing Mooney. Just after I landed they switched runways..
 

 

 

 

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It's been a few years, but Pompano is my go-to field down there.   Goodyear blimp is based at PMP.  Lovely airport.

[Little Dipper]

  On 9/1/2024 at 7:13 PM, Hank said:

If it's just a couple minutes' difference in taxi time, why accept any tailwind? 

How moderate is runway length? How moderate are the obstacles?

I don't like tailwinds in my Mooney. But I'd probably accept a little more on takeoff than on landing, assuming adequate length and no obstacles. Length is suspect, obstacles present? There's no need, suck it up and taxi some.

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Why accept a tailwind?   So you don't have to land on runway 26 when the sun blinds the pilot on final during sunset.    So you don't have to taxi in 95 degree heat and extra five minutes.   Even AWOS calls winds light and variable when winds are less that 5.   I'll take the tail wind.   

 

 

 

[Marc_B]

I looked back in my POH and noticed that the performance charts have a line that goes up to 10 kts for the tailwind component and stop.  I take it that this was intentional, but not sure if this is similar to the 12 kts demonstrated crosswind that is "not a limitation"...  Does anyone happen to know the history of this with the Mooney factory???

[EricJ]

  On 9/2/2024 at 1:31 PM, Marc_B said:

I looked back in my POH and noticed that the performance charts have a line that goes up to 10 kts for the tailwind component and stop. 

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The temperature only goes up to 40C, too.    That's insufficient for much of the southwest in the summer. 

[EricJ]

  On 9/2/2024 at 12:50 PM, Marc_B said:

Colorado has a few mandatory tailwind if that’s what it takes. I.e. KGWS Glenwood Springs Rwy14/32 3305x50. To the north terrain rises quickly so the preferred approach is landing 32, departing 14. And for a mountain airport the runway is unusually short for Colorado. This is a place most pilots really have to do some calculations for. 

It’s also a great reason why a turbo Mooney is a great Colorado Mooney 

BTW Colorado Pilots Association puts on a great Mountain Flying Course every year. If you haven’t taken it, you absolutely should!!

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Yeah, there are a number of airports where you'll willingly take a tailwind rather than change runways.   Telluride and Sedona come to mind as well.   For many of these sorts of airports the preferred landing and takeoff directions are opposite to each other, so if it's breezy you'll either be landing or taking off in a tailwind much of the time.

[Fly Boomer]

And pressure altitude only goes to 8000.  They just covered the most likely numbers.

[PT20J]

GAMA Specification  No. 1 (which is the industry consensus standard for the POH) says that, "Landing distance data shall be presented as landing distance versus outside air temperature, altitude and wind." Two examples are given: Tabular, commonly used by Cessna, and graphical, which Mooney used. The graphical example shows tailwinds up to 10 kts. The table example includes a note, "For operations with tailwinds up to 10 knots, increase distances by 6% for each 2.5 knots." So, apparently all the manufacturers agreed that tailwinds of up to 10 knots are acceptable.

https://gama.aero/documents/gama-specification-1-specification-for-pilots-operating-handbook-version-2-0/

[hubcap]

A couple of years ago I landed in Little Rock with a 5kt tailwind. There was plenty of runway so I didn’t sweat it. Very uneventful. They switched directions just after I landed. 

[Hank]

  On 9/2/2024 at 4:42 PM, PT20J said:

GAMA Specification  No. 1 (which is the industry consensus standard for the POH) says that, "Landing distance data shall be presented as landing distance versus outside air temperature, altitude and wind." Two examples are given: Tabular, commonly used by Cessna, and graphical, which Mooney used. The graphical example shows tailwinds up to 10 kts. The table example includes a note, "For operations with tailwinds up to 10 knots, increase distances by 6% for each 2.5 knots." So, apparently all the manufacturers agreed that tailwinds of up to 10 knots are acceptable.

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My graphs look suspiciously Tabular, and the only note about winds says "NO WIND." There is variation in altitude, temperature and gross weight.

So I try to minimize tailwinds. My two tailwind landings were made as instructed, one each by FSS and Tower, and I was expecting headwinds as usual, not tailwinds. Both were unpleasant surprises.

[hubcap]

That is a good point…I was “expecting” the tailwind. Big difference.

[PT20J]

  On 9/2/2024 at 4:58 PM, Hank said:

My graphs look suspiciously Tabular, and the only note about winds says "NO WIND." There is variation in altitude, temperature and gross weight.

So I try to minimize tailwinds. My two tailwind landings were made as instructed, one each by FSS and Tower, and I was expecting headwinds as usual, not tailwinds. Both were unpleasant surprises.

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The POH spec didn't come out until 1975 and Mooney adopted it sometime thereafter. 

[jrwilson]

Sounds like it might be beneficial for some to try a tailwind takeoff or landing during their next flight review.  As mentioned above there are times when you’re stuck with a tailwind, whether it’s terrain, ATC, prevailing traffic or something else.  Trying it with an instructor and getting comfortable is a better alternative than just a blanket policy of “no tailwinds for me…”

[hammdo]

Happens a lot here in Dallas when we get front passages. Had to do tailwind landings on Friday before the tower switched runways. I can tell the difference and GS is the other clue.  Since I do full stop landings, I’ll float a bit with the tailwind until she settles…

-Don

[laytonl]

As others have said, it depends.  My home runway is one-way.  I generally will accept 10 kts tailwind for takeoff or landing based on weight and Temperature, for my 3,000 ft grass strip.  The strip has a significant downhill component for takeoff.  Lee

[Joshua Blackh4t]

I think everyone should be capable of 10kts tailwind. And know how much extra runway you need, the fact that wind is likely increasing as you climb out etc.

I mainly use it on narrow gravel runways to save the prop when taxiing and turning.