Switch from key to switches?

[Modify201]

We are currently overhauling our panel in our ‘68 C to all Garmin glass. While we are at it, we are thinking of switching our key ignition to a L/R IGN switches and a push button for starter. Is it worth the trouble?
 

Bonus - we are thinking of LED backlighting the label engravings on the new panel? Has anyone done this?

[McMooney]

I'm planning the same, partly due to having a surefly, mostly because it looks cooler

Edited March 12 by McMooney

[EricJ]

You'll also get rid of the Bendix switch AD by doing that.

[Utah20Gflyer]

If you have shower of sparks you might need to go to at least one electronic ignition to get rid of that system.   I don’t believe the switches are well suited for SOS.  

[Ragsf15e]

I think they are cool too, but just consider the increased risk.  Yes, I know it happens with a key too… but it’s pretty darn easy to leave the switches on during shutdown and kill your self hooking up the tow bar and moving the prop over.  I just think removing the key with my red streamer on it is one more step in making sure the mags are grounded.  The switches are damn cool though.  I flew them on a flight school Cessna and my student left them on once.  I realized just as she was under the prop hooking up the towbar.

[Fritz1]

Totally different perspective, I have an impulse coupling mag which can fire big time with minimum prop movement, I kept the key switch because I might just forget to turn those switches off, they are black, hard to see, key in hand feels safer to me

[Hank]

When I get out if the plane, the keys are usually on top of the panel. Been doing that since a Student Pilot. Did it last night, the quick glance at the panel as I'm stretching out the tow bar.

If you put in switches, you'll need to look for flashing lights, a new habit to build.

If I don't see keys on the panel, I stop and check my pockets. A couple of times in the last 17 years, I've found the keys still in the switch . . . .

[N201MKTurbo]

9 hours ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

If you have shower of sparks you might need to go to at least one electronic ignition to get rid of that system.   I don’t believe the switches are well suited for SOS.  

You could do it with a 3 pole double throw start button. The start button from a twin Cessna would work.

[RescueMunchkin]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

When I get out if the plane, the keys are usually on top of the panel. Been doing that since a Student Pilot. Did it last night, the quick glance at the panel as I'm stretching out the tow bar.

If you put in switches, you'll need to look for flashing lights, a new habit to build.

If I don't see keys on the panel, I stop and check my pockets. A couple of times in the last 17 years, I've found the keys still in the switch . . . .

There is still the possibility of pulling the key out of the ignition while one of the mags isn't grounded..think that's what a few ADs are about. Scary thought but I'd always assume that moving the prop could cause the engine to start and be ready for it.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, RescueMunchkin said:

There is still the possibility of pulling the key out of the ignition while one of the mags isn't grounded..think that's what a few ADs are about. Scary thought but I'd always assume that moving the prop could cause the engine to start and be ready for it.

Sure, that's always a possibility. But it's much much more likely if the ignition is still on . . . . With zero "ignition button" experience, that appears more likely to happen without a key to remove and set on the panel so you can tell at a glance that it's OFF.

So changing from key to button will require new habits and new checks. Just something to think about. 

[Kelpro999]

Be careful and set up switches so you can’t crank with the non-impulse mag “hot”. 

[jamesm]

I have one installed in '67C a couple of things that bothers me, is start button has no real guard around it. so if you bump the start switch or if a unsupervised/curious person decides to press the red button, because everybody like pressing the red button, especially the red button you are not supposed to press it will turn over the prop. I pull the ignition CB to prevent this. The rocker switches are kind of cheesy and  could have deeper guard around them to protect inadvertently bumping the mag switch(es).  The other thing is with SureFly ignition  installed,  the engine runs so smooth on my left magneto it is real easy to start the engine and then taxi forgetting to turn on my right magneto.  What is great about the EI CGR30C/P engine monitor has indication above RPM/Tach showing me when the magneto is off. If you have two magneto installed they don't provided  you the wring diagram to incorporate the shower of sparks (starter vibrator) circuitry. When going from the Bendix ignition key switch push to start switch to the two rocker switches push to start switch. I have had it installed for about 4 plus years no problems, it works great.

Just my observations.

James

 

[47U]

3 hours ago, jamesm said:

I have one installed in '67C a couple of things that bothers me, is start button has no real guard around it. so if you bump the start switch or if a unsupervised/curious person decides to press the red button, because everybody like pressing the red button, especially the red button you are not supposed to press it will turn over the prop. I pull the ignition CB to prevent this. The rocker switches are kind of cheesy and  could have deeper guard around them to protect inadvertently bumping the mag switch(es).  The other thing is with SureFly ignition  installed,  the engine runs so smooth on my left magneto it is real easy to start the engine and then taxi forgetting to turn on my right magneto.  What is great about the EI CGR30C/P engine monitor has indication above RPM/Tach showing me when the magneto is off. If you have two magneto installed they don't provided  you the wring diagram to incorporate the shower of sparks (starter vibrator) circuitry. When going from the Bendix ignition key switch push to start switch to the two rocker switches push to start switch. I have had it installed for about 4 plus years no problems, it works great.

Just my observations.

James

 

I didn’t have room for the rocker switch ignition panel, so I installed two DPDT mil-spec toggle switches.  I put them on top of the radio stack, where nothing else fits.  I moved the ship’s Master switch and the ELT panel there, too.  I adopted a mag switch schematic I found on a RV’r website.  

Both mag switches in the ‘up’ position grounds the right mag and energizes the starter solenoid.  The left mag (SureFly) is hot.  When the engine starts release the switches, they’re spring loaded back to ‘center’ and both mags are hot.  Inflight mag checks are a piece of cake.  No more after-fire from not moving the key quickly enough with SureFly latency on the left mag.  Shut down is normal… pull the mixture, when the engine stops both switches in the ‘down’ position grounds both mags.

After shutdown, I do have to double/triple check that the mags are cold, both switches down.  But, there’s virtually no chance of inadvertent starter actuation because both toggle switches have to be ‘up’ to complete the starter circuit.

[jamesm]

To clarify my previous post ....

I stuck with more tradition route, Used the overly priced Electroair EA-15000 switch panel. I would have rather of used off the shelf higher quality switches. Didn't want to draw attention or create potential of what category is my ignition switches are they minor or  major repair/alteration problem/discussion/conversation .

James

[LANCECASPER]

Back in 2020 I did a new panel on a Bravo that I owned. On the lower left I put in an Electroair switch for the magnetos (https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/ea_08-17141.php?clickkey=18187), but got rid of the frame that their switches come with and just had the labels put on the panel itself.

 

 

[Pinecone]

I have to figure out a way to double check that the mags are off.

I have flown airplanes with switches and push button for the mags. Most, the switches are visible from outside with some looking.  Mainly Citabria/Decathalon.  switches are in the wing root.

[201er]

Keep in mind some states may require 2 locks and the ignition key acts as the second. NJ requires aircraft spending over 24 hours to have 2 locks:

 

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2003/march/25/general-aviation-aircraft-two-lock-faqs

[ttflyer]

We just did this during our panel upgrade. I like the change very much! But...  You still need a system for insuring the switches are off.  I still use the red flag "remove before flight" key chain.  It only goes on the dash when I am 100% sure I have confirmed the switches are OFF.  Not quite as "fool proof" as the key in the ignition thing but that's not fool proof either.

Also, always treat the prop like it's hot...  Also also, for what ever reason, I always check these switches now on shutdown to confirm they kill the mags before I pull the mixture. I know I should have been doing that with the key but I didn't always remember (rarely I would say).  Can't explain why other then it's just so easy with the mag switches plus I'm thinking about it now...

So is it "safer"? Who knows.  This whole thing is serious business with lots of ways to mess up.  I like the new system but I'm very mindful of its new dangers.

[ttflyer]

13 hours ago, jamesm said:

I have one installed in '67C a couple of things that bothers me, is start button has no real guard around it. so if you bump the start switch or if a unsupervised/curious person decides to press the red button, because everybody like pressing the red button, especially the red button you are not supposed to press it will turn over the prop. I pull the ignition CB to prevent this. The rocker switches are kind of cheesy and  could have deeper guard around them to protect inadvertently bumping the mag switch(es).  The other thing is with SureFly ignition  installed,  the engine runs so smooth on my left magneto it is real easy to start the engine and then taxi forgetting to turn on my right magneto.  What is great about the EI CGR30C/P engine monitor has indication above RPM/Tach showing me when the magneto is off. If you have two magneto installed they don't provided  you the wring diagram to incorporate the shower of sparks (starter vibrator) circuitry. When going from the Bendix ignition key switch push to start switch to the two rocker switches push to start switch. I have had it installed for about 4 plus years no problems, it works great.

Just my observations.

James

 

Does that red button turn the prop with the master OFF?  That would be news to me (but things often are). I'll be checking this on my next trip to the Mooney.  If it doesn't, then we are talking flipping two switches to get the prop to turn over and that's a pretty deliberate, knowledgeable act IMO.

[47U]

7 hours ago, jamesm said:

Didn't want to draw attention or create potential of what category is my ignition switches are they minor or  major repair/alteration problem/discussion/conversation .

A valid consideration… I certainly discussed this mod with my IA before I went forward.  When working with my IA, it’s better to ask for permission rather than forgiveness.

[Rick Junkin]

Here's my technique for a positive visual check that the mag switches are off. These are simple white labels I made with my label maker and trimmed to fit the top of each switch. When the mag is ON the labels disappear into the switch housing. It works really well with my visual post-shutdown flow check. I can easily see them from outside the pilot's side window, and I check them every time before I approach the prop. I can reach through the IFR window (assuming I remembered to leave it open) to turn them off from the outside if necessary.

Cheers,
Junkman

[Pinecone]

Hmmm, maybe a guard around the push button to hang a ring with a Remove AFTER Flight streamer.

[Rick Junkin]

39 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Hmmm, maybe a guard around the push button to hang a ring with a Remove AFTER Flight streamer.

How about a deadman switch key on a tether, like on a jet ski? 

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

What might your insurance agency say if it ever gets stolen?  "You made it so a thief did not need the key?"

[LANCECASPER]

8 minutes ago, AH-1 Cobra Pilot said:

What might your insurance agency say if it ever gets stolen?  "You made it so a thief did not need the key?"

Put a Medeco lock on the door whether you have buttons or a key switch if you want to avoid airplane or avionics theft. They will move to the next airplane on the ramp . . .  or use a crowbar. . . lol. Every reputable FBO has a chain where they keep about 15-20 keys that will open and start any Cessna, Mooney, Piper, etc that have the standard file cabinet locks. Plus no turboprop or jet I've ever seen has an ignition key,.

https://aircraftsecurity.com/