Headrests. Love 'em or not.

[M20F]

17 hours ago, Echo said:

I completely disagree with your reply.

You are free to do so, best wishes.  

[Echo]

8 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Sounds like this hit a nerve, eh?

I admit I missed your point: you just don’t care if headrests add safety. As you say, your choice to whistle past the graveyard; I agree that’s what freedom is all about.

Should you live through a crash with passengers that are injured/killed you probably won’t be whistling past the courtroom! Your analogies with night flight, IFR, TKS are poor ones in that they are commonly accepted risks. If your plane was originally equipped with headrests which are now removed…THAT is a whole ‘nother kettle o’ fish when it comes lawsuit time.  I suspect you know this but don’t care; your choice but it sounds like you’re really just believing you’ll never have a crash.

Super dramatic?    Plane wasn't equipped with headrests or shoulder harnesses.  Your words are hyperbole?  My God do you ever stop to think how many classic car operators are on the road in their "deat traps"?  Would you use these anecdotes about whistling through the grave yard to describe their behavior of enjoying their vehicle?  Would you lecture them thusly?  Woupd you wLk around a classic car show and lecture them about attorneys.  Sheesh.  No actually lol   Scott

[Echo]

10 minutes ago, M20F said:

You are free to do so, best wishes.  

Thanks for your blessing?   

[Shadrach]

On 9/13/2023 at 3:03 PM, PT20J said:

They are only there to restrict neck movement in a crash. If you don’t crash, you don’t need them. Same as shoulder harnesses. 

No one read ends a Mooney…

[EricJ]

Your head is a pretty heavy thing suspended on the end of your neck, especially in a crash where g-forces are high and do nasty things.    The rebound is a real thing.

Even in amateur racing most rules sets require a head-and-neck restraint be used, after a number of crashes (including Dale Earnhardt) with fatalities due to basilar skull fractures, where the head essentially pops off the end of the neck in a skeletal sense.    If they stay connected the rebound of the stretched neck pulling back on the head can be substantial, and if that travel is limited by a head rest the whiplash can be prevented.

I don't have headrests in my seats, but I'd prefer if they did.    Someday if I get the seats redone that'll definitely be a thing to add.

 

[Echo]

53 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Your head is a pretty heavy thing suspended on the end of your neck, especially in a crash where g-forces are high and do nasty things.    The rebound is a real thing.

Even in amateur racing most rules sets require a head-and-neck restraint be used, after a number of crashes (including Dale Earnhardt) with fatalities due to basilar skull fractures, where the head essentially pops off the end of the neck in a skeletal sense.    If they stay connected the rebound of the stretched neck pulling back on the head can be substantial, and if that travel is limited by a head rest the whiplash can be prevented.

I don't have headrests in my seats, but I'd prefer if they did.    Someday if I get the seats redone that'll definitely be a thing to add.

 

Lol. Do you watch the video. Headrests didn’t do jack to mitigate the event. What ever gets you to your happy place. I live in Realsville  

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, Echo said:

Lol. Do you watch the video. Headrests didn’t do jack to mitigate the event. What ever gets you to your happy place. I live in Realsville  

There's no headrest in the vid.

[Wingfree]

Anyone selling headrests? 

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, Wingfree said:

Anyone selling headrests? 

Sounds like Echo has some he's not using

[MikeOH]

5 hours ago, Echo said:

Super dramatic?    Plane wasn't equipped with headrests or shoulder harnesses.  Your words are hyperbole?  My God do you ever stop to think how many classic car operators are on the road in their "deat traps"?  Would you use these anecdotes about whistling through the grave yard to describe their behavior of enjoying their vehicle?  Would you lecture them thusly?  Woupd you wLk around a classic car show and lecture them about attorneys.  Sheesh.  No actually lol   Scott

If you say so... I'm not trying to lecture you despite what you may think.  The physics are clear, and you get that, you choose to accept that risk; I have no issue with that.  My point, which you again miss with the classic car analogy, is that those vehicles NEVER had those safety items so the attorney risk isn't any worse than with any accident.  So, my point, is that if your plane ever had headrests or shoulder harnesses (doubtful on shoulder harnesses!) and were removed, then the injuries are going to be worse and financial damages awarded in any resulting lawsuit are going to be worse.  That's all I was trying to point out: that lawsuit risk might not been something you had considered.

Frankly, I think the lawsuit risks are VERY real and for that reason I do NOT fly anyone but family; the liability limits are ridiculously low ($1MM), and all the umbrella policies I've found specifically EXCLUDE aviation!  Gee, I wonder if it's a real risk that I should just be cavalier about ignoring?

Finally, my '70F came without shoulder harnesses and front headrests (but has back ones; someone removed the fronts and covered over the holes!)  I added shoulder harnesses immediately (like after the flight home from purchase!) but have NOT installed headrests (see, I'm a risk taker, too!).  But, like @EricJ I'm likely to install them when I recover the front seats.

[LANCECASPER]

3 hours ago, Echo said:

Lol. Do you watch the video. Headrests didn’t do jack to mitigate the event. What ever gets you to your happy place. I live in Realsville  

You might consider a visit to your local Optometrist in Realsville .. lol. 

@EricJ was showing by using this video the effect when there is no headrest, and without a headrest there's nothing there to mitigate the event.

[PT20J]

It hurt my neck just watching the video 

[DCarlton]

Lots of passionate debate.  Anyone with headrests installed willing to take a pic sitting in their seat with their head back against the headrest?  I’ve gotta check my plane now.  My headrests are cheesy things slipped over a U shaped post mounted into slots on the back of the seats.  I don’t remember them being robust enough, big enough, angle properly, or high enough to support much of anything.  If I’m wrong I’ll reinstall mine when I recover the seats.  I’ve been rear ended, my truck was totaled and my face hit the steering wheel while wearing a harness and I suffered severe whiplash.  I don’t discount the value of headrests, and I’m no expert, but the ‘67 Mooney headrests seemed useless.  I’ve heard of folks extending their seat backs though.  No idea how you do that “legally”.  

[ArtVandelay]

I don’t see how you could extend the seat back, you’d have to extend the frame, I can imagine that being approved. Is there any standard certified seats have to meet, like being able ti withstand 25 G loads or something similar?
Seats without headrests look so antiquated, like they belong in a 1950s car.

[Bob E]

11 hours ago, Echo said:

Lol. Do you watch the video. Headrests didn’t do jack to mitigate the event. What ever gets you to your happy place. I live in Realsville  

Echo, your posts, including but not limited to the one above, are emblematic of how this forum has changed recently.  I've been on Mooneyspace for many years. There have always been lots of disagreements among us Mooney owners -- about what the regs say, about performance, maintenance, flying techniques, safety, avionics, whatever. That's what this forum has always been about -- an exchange of views, including disagreements, the idea being that everyone benefits from such discussions.  Until very recently everyone has always been RESPECTFUL of others. We're fellow pilots trying to help each other out.

Then this past year or so, some newbies have crashed in and instead of showing collegiality, starting insulting everyone, including valued members who have a long history of being extremely helpful in terms of providing information, documentation, references, and comments.  Several of those valued members have decided it's not worth the hassle and have left, reducing the usefulness of this forum.

EricJ posted an on-topic video to add useful information to this discussion.  His post is worthy of a respectful response.

 

 

[201Steve]

There is a theme.
A perceived black and white issue with predisposed position > additional complexities are presented > more thinking is required > maybe it’s actually a little grey > get frustrated > act like I’m  not frustrated > dismiss the discussion > send outward signals of inner peace. 

[Echo]

The trauma in the video is on the forward motion. Not the “rebound “. That is what the video shows. Headrests have a minimal benefit, as installed, retrofitted in a Mooney.  Thanks for a visual validation. Scott 

[Echo]

1 hour ago, 201Steve said:

There is a theme.
A perceived black and white issue with predisposed position > additional complexities are presented > more thinking is required > maybe it’s actually a little grey > get frustrated > act like I’m  not frustrated > dismiss the discussion > send outward signals of inner peace. 

Black and white to me. In a Mooney headrest’s have minimal benefit and are, in most planes I have seen, not designed for proper function, serving minimal benefit. Glad my plane doesn’t have them installed. Scott 

[Echo]

9 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

You might consider a visit to your local Optometrist in Realsville .. lol. 

@EricJ was showing by using this video the effect when there is no headrest, and without a headrest there's nothing there to mitigate the event.

I patently disagree.   Scott 

[Echo]

10 hours ago, MikeOH said:

If you say so... I'm not trying to lecture you despite what you may think.  The physics are clear, and you get that, you choose to accept that risk; I have no issue with that.  My point, which you again miss with the classic car analogy, is that those vehicles NEVER had those safety items so the attorney risk isn't any worse than with any accident.  So, my point, is that if your plane ever had headrests or shoulder harnesses (doubtful on shoulder harnesses!) and were removed, then the injuries are going to be worse and financial damages awarded in any resulting lawsuit are going to be worse.  That's all I was trying to point out: that lawsuit risk might not been something you had considered.

Frankly, I think the lawsuit risks are VERY real and for that reason I do NOT fly anyone but family; the liability limits are ridiculously low ($1MM), and all the umbrella policies I've found specifically EXCLUDE aviation!  Gee, I wonder if it's a real risk that I should just be cavalier about ignoring?

Finally, my '70F came without shoulder harnesses and front headrests (but has back ones; someone removed the fronts and covered over the holes!)  I added shoulder harnesses immediately (like after the flight home from purchase!) but have NOT installed headrests (see, I'm a risk taker, too!).  But, like @EricJ I'm likely to install them when I recover the front seats.

I see and don’t disagree with any of your points as stated here. Regarding benefits, as installed I see none and would never retrofit them in my Mooney. Shoulder harnesses?  Absolutely. 

[Echo]

10 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Sounds like Echo has some he's not using

My ‘65 never had them…As previously stated. Scott 

[Echo]

14 hours ago, EricJ said:

Your head is a pretty heavy thing suspended on the end of your neck, especially in a crash where g-forces are high and do nasty things.    The rebound is a real thing.

Even in amateur racing most rules sets require a head-and-neck restraint be used, after a number of crashes (including Dale Earnhardt) with fatalities due to basilar skull fractures, where the head essentially pops off the end of the neck in a skeletal sense.    If they stay connected the rebound of the stretched neck pulling back on the head can be substantial, and if that travel is limited by a head rest the whiplash can be prevented.

I don't have headrests in my seats, but I'd prefer if they did.    Someday if I get the seats redone that'll definitely be a thing to add.

 

The violence is forward in the stop. NOT in the rebound. Whether with or without headrests THAT is clearly shown. Thank you for validation. Now if rearended(not a likely plane scenario) Headrests, if properly designed and installed, could greatly mitigate cervical injury. 

[Fly Boomer]

14 hours ago, EricJ said:

I don't have headrests in my seats, but I'd prefer if they did.    Someday if I get the seats redone that'll definitely be a thing to add.

I wonder why they put clothing on crash test dummies?

[201Steve]

1 hour ago, Fly Boomer said:

I wonder why they put clothing on crash test dummies?

Don’t want to get the kids excited

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, Fly Boomer said:

I wonder why they put clothing on crash test dummies?

Dumb, but prude?