Well that fell through.

[FlyingDude]

On 6/30/2023 at 2:04 AM, wombat said:

That means they are pretty sure it's going to break if you fly it somewhere. 

No. They just don't trust "any" mechanic. In other words, I'm not letting you fly my plane to an unknown location where your potential mooney-illiterate guy can butcher my plane and then I'll have to foot the bill to fix it. I don't trust contracts either, because how am I actually going to get the cash to compensate for the damages? Will I have to spend more in lawyers and collectors than how much is owed to me?

I've had some shoddy car mechanic experiences and I've heard enough about other people's plane experiences to be sure that my approach is "cautious" and not "unrealistic" or "paranoid".

With the decreasing number of GA planes and even lower number of flying planes (read the article on hangar Queens on this month's Mooney flyer), it'll remain a seller's market...

 

[kortopates]

People can be that way, but what this thread reinforces more than anything else is the real headache associated with buying an owner represented aircraft. Brokers can be much more pleasant to deal with such as Jimmy. But some brokers aren’t much better than the sellers that don’t want to let go.

Still despite what you read here, we at Savvy do a lot of pre-buy contracts for Mooney’s and we always advise walking away from any seller that won’t allow the Mooney to be flown to a reputable shop for an independent pre-buy. we don’t at all like the idea of brining a mechanic to the owners hangar because then the owner is in control of the pre-buy - which isn’t tenable. The pre-buy needs to be under the control of the independent shop working for the buyer following our multi-phase inspection.
Keep in mind this only after the sale has progressed to the point the buyer and seller have agreed on a price and the buyer has put up a large deposit on it subject to the plane passing the inspection with usual contract terms of the seller paying for any airworthiness issues.


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[ArtVandelay]

People can be that way, but what this thread reinforces more than anything else is the real headache associated with buying an owner represented aircraft. Brokers can be much more pleasant to deal with such as Jimmy. But some brokers aren’t much better than the sellers that don’t want to let go.

Still despite what you read here, we at Savvy do a lot of pre-buy contracts for Mooney’s and we always advise walking away from any seller that won’t allow the Mooney to be flown to a reputable shop for an independent pre-buy. we don’t at all like the idea of brining a mechanic to the owners hangar because then the owner is in control of the pre-buy - which isn’t tenable. The pre-buy needs to be under the control of the independent shop working for the buyer following our multi-phase inspection.
Keep in mind this only after the sale has progressed to the point the buyer and seller have agreed on a price and the buyer has put up a large deposit on it subject to the plane passing the inspection with usual contract terms of the seller paying for any airworthiness issues.


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Define reputable? MSC?

Think about what you’re saying; you don’t want the OWNER to be in control of his own aircraft. That will make a lot of owners nervous.
I think limiting the distance from the home airport is not an unreasonable restriction and not allowing flying it to be flown to the buyers home airport would be understandable as well.

[kortopates]

4 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Define reputable? MSC?

Think about what you’re saying; you don’t want the OWNER to be in control of his own aircraft. That will make a lot of owners nervous.
I think limiting the distance from the home airport is not an unreasonable restriction and not allowing flying it to be flown to the buyers home airport would be understandable as well.

Remember, you have a buyer that wants to buy your aircraft for an agreed price and has put good money up to do so. You'll also be able to agree to the scope of the inspection checklist. Are you really going to prevent them from getting a pre-purchase inspection done by a dis-interested third party shop that you'll also need to agree too. Else buyer walks. 

Buyer doesn't want to pay to have you or someone else to fly the aircraft far away. Nor it doesn't need to be an MSC since we provide the checklist. But it can't be the sellers maintainer.

[OR75]

3 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Remember, you have a buyer that wants to buy your aircraft for an agreed price and has put good money up to do so. You'll also be able to agree to the scope of the inspection checklist. Are you really going to prevent them from getting a pre-purchase inspection done by a dis-interested third party shop that you'll also need to agree too. Else buyer walks. 

Buyer doesn't want to pay to have you or someone else to fly the aircraft far away. Nor it doesn't need to be an MSC since we provide the checklist. But it can't be the sellers maintainer.

agreed it cannot be the sellers maintainer.

I am not sure how bringing a mechanic to the owner's hangar would really put the owner in control of the pre-buy except keeping the ability for a stop authority (based on which the mechanic can of course draw a conclusion).  

Personally, i would not let a pre-by go beyond what is in an annual inspection scope. If no one is representing  the seller, what prevents the mechanic doing the pre-buy to go beyond that (the possibilities are endless!)

 

[kortopates]

agreed it cannot be the sellers maintainer.
I am not sure how bringing a mechanic to the owner's hangar would really put the owner in control of the pre-buy except keeping the ability for a stop authority (based on which the mechanic can of course draw a conclusion).  
Personally, i would not let a pre-by go beyond what is in an annual inspection scope. If no one is representing  the seller, what prevents the mechanic doing the pre-buy to go beyond that (the possibilities are endless!)
 

The inspection checklist is very clear and agreed too. It’s a subset of annual or 100 hr inspection. You don’t really think the buyer wants to pay for an out of control “annual inspection” do you? The inspection is looking for costly issues.


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[OR75]

9 minutes ago, kortopates said:

The inspection checklist is very clear and agreed too. It’s a subset of annual or 100 hr inspection. You don’t really think the buyer wants to pay for an out of control “annual inspection” do you? The inspection is looking for costly issues.


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why can't it be in the owner's hangar ?

the inspector does his job as per the checklist, the owner sees that the inspector sticks to the checklist 

[Pinecone]

15 hours ago, FlyingDude said:

.I don't trust contracts either, because how am I actually going to get the cash to compensate for the damages? Will I have to spend more in lawyers and collectors than how much is owed to me?

That is what the deposit is for. Buyer places the money in escrow with a company.  Once the PPI is done and everyone is happy, the deposit adds to the payment.  If not, the deposit goes to the seller or buyer depending on why the deal fell through.

[hubcap]

6 hours ago, OR75 said:

why can't it be in the owner's hangar ?

the inspector does his job as per the checklist, the owner sees that the inspector sticks to the checklist.

Why is the owner so obsessed with having the plane in his hangar? 
 

Does the owner go in the back with the mechanic when he is getting the oil changed in his automobile? I recently took Myrtle over to have some work done at a different airport…I did not have any trepidation about leaving her there for the work to be performed. 
 

This type of behavior raises red flags to me. 

 

[hubcap]

15 hours ago, FlyingDude said:

 I don't trust contracts either, because how am I actually going to get the cash to compensate for the damages? Will I have to spend more in lawyers and collectors than how much is owed to me?

Saying you don’t trust contracts says far more about you than you may realize.

Perhaps you didn’t realize that our entire economy is based on contracts.

[bcg]

Every time I see one of these threads, I feel really lucky with how easy my purchase was.  Seller sent me logbooks and I went through them, nothing looked bad so I flew up to see the plane and we took it for a test flight.  We negotiated a price and signed contract, I wired him a deposit directly, no escrow, and he flew the plane 1.5 hours to the mechanic for a PPI.  I had them look for the deal killers first, nothing turned up so I had them do a full annual.  Once that was completed, I wired the balance and he sent me signed paperwork.  There was a lot of trust from both sides that the other was an honest person but, we both were and everything went smoothly.

 

As to the post that started all this, I'd like to remind all those that are saying "no random mechanic is touching my plane" that he was having Dugosh do the PPI, the very first MSC who is located right across the airport from the Mooney Factory, not some random mechanic.  I'm based at ERV and Dugosh works on my plane, these guys are not going to screw something up inadvertently and if something did happen that was their fault, they would take care of it.  If as a seller you can't let Dugosh or Maxwell or one of the other very well known and respected MSCs have your plane for a PPI, you're not serious about selling.  Honestly, as a seller, I would be far more concerned about the mechanic that can afford to take the time to travel and do a PPI in my hangar than I would be about taking it to a reputable shop like Dugosh.  As busy as mechanics are these days, anyone that has that much free time on their hands is immediately a bit suspect to me.  M20Doc alluded to this as well.

 

I understand a seller being concerned about the plane being taken apart but at the same time, you're selling the plane and a serious buyer's need to know what they're getting really trumps that concern.  Use a good contract, get a deposit, do whatever you need to do to know that the buyer is serious but once that's done and terms are agreed on, it's really more the buyer's show to run than the seller's.  Don't blow up a sale over something stupid like not wanting to move the plane for a PPI to the very first MSC who is located on the same field as the factory and has an excellent reputation for quality work and honesty.  Doing that just makes you look like a shady seller.

 

OP, I think you probably dodged a bullet here.  If the seller is being this difficult about getting a PPI done, to the point that they're back-peddling on an agreement that they made, just imagine how much trouble you would have if something serious came up in the inspection. 

[MikeOH]

Yeah, my purchase as a first (and only, so far) airplane buyer was even easier/luckier than bcg's!

Took a look at the plane, agreed on price, seller flew the plane to the mechanic of my choice.  No deposit, no contract; just a handshake.  Wired the money after the PPI, flew the plane to my airport.

It didn't hurt that I'd looked at over a dozen planes and their logs.  Most had been flown very little in recent years.  And, a lot had only been owned a year or two with very little use.  The PO of my plane had owned it for 13 years and had averaged 100 hours a year.  I didn't expect many problems at PPI, and there were not.

Personally, I'd run from any seller that would not allow the plane out of his hangar.

[bcg]

Yeah, my purchase as a first (and only, so far) airplane buyer was even easier/luckier than bcg's!
Took a look at the plane, agreed on price, seller flew the plane to the mechanic of my choice.  No deposit, no contract; just a handshake.  Wired the money after the PPI, flew the plane to my airport.
It didn't hurt that I'd looked at over a dozen planes and their logs.  Most had been flown very little in recent years.  And, a lot had only been owned a year or two with very little use.  The PO of my plane had owned it for 13 years and had averaged 100 hours a year.  I didn't expect many problems at PPI, and there were not.
Personally, I'd run from any seller that would not allow the plane out of his hangar.

My seller didn't actually ask for the deposit, I offered it because he was bringing the plane from Abilene to San Antonio.

The take away from you, me and a few other posts here I think, is that there are reasonable sellers out there with good planes for sale so a buyer shouldn't waste time with the "not leaving my hangar" types.

I really don't understand the mentality, I guess some folks are really attached to their planes. I love what mine provides me but the plane itself, at the end of the day, it's a thing that will never love anyone back. When the day comes for me to sell it, I'll qualify the buyer and then let them have whoever they want to look it over wherever they want as long as it's not more than say 3 hours away and they pay to get me home. They will be on the hook once the plane changes hands, they need to know what they're buying.

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[bcg]

39 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

So both of you are first time owners which means that neither of you have ever sold an airplane before.

May your experience as sellers be as positive as your experiences as buyers have been.

 

I hear what you're saying and I've sold enough vehicles, boats, real estate and heavy equipment thorough the years to know what a hassle it can be if you aren't thoughtful about it.  Over the years, I've learned how to qualify buyers so I'm not wasting time with tire kickers or people with no ability to close.  I would expect it to be similar when selling a plane, after all the actual process of selling a $100k excavator or boat shouldn't really be all that different than selling a $100k plane, other than the excavator being more difficult to move.  Once you have a contract and a deposit, you know you're dealing with a serious buyer and can act accordingly.

Personalities have a lot to do with this also though, a seller that's acting like he doesn't want to sell and isn't cooperating with buyers is going to have a lot harder time than one that isn't.  Really, selling something that's a discretionary buy and someone is purchasing because they want it and are excited about it should be easy and fun for buyer and seller.  I've bought and sold a few boats, some small, some bigger offshore boats and a lot of this discussion reminds me of the argument boat people have about sea trials, especially with bigger boats.  Sellers, understandably, don't want to give a bunch of joy rides but on the flip side, there are a lot of things you can learn as a buyer by taking a boat for a spin.  I always expected to be able to do one with a boat purchase, even a new boat, and I was always willing to give one to a serious buyer when selling.  I gave a few joyrides before I learned how to qualify buyers but once I figured that out, I didn't waste much time on tire kickers.

The post that started this gives all the indications of a serious buyer.  He was willing to spend a few grand on a PPI with a well known MSC, I think the seller screwed up here and lost a sale because of it.  The other alternatives are they don't really want to sell but they're being forced to by a spouse or something or, they know there's something wrong with the plane and they're trying to hide it.  I can't see any other legitimate reason for not letting a serious and qualified buyer take the plane to a quality shop for an inspection.  The argument about the cost to put it back together falls kind of flat when the buyer has paid a deposit, that's part of what it's for, to give the seller protection against something like this.  I know this shop though, they're not going to hold anybody's plane hostage over something dumb.  They've got plenty of work already and wouldn't want to sacrifice hangar space playing games like that.

[A64Pilot]

2 hours ago, hubcap said:

Saying you don’t trust contracts says far more about you than you may realize.

Perhaps you didn’t realize that our entire economy is based on contracts.

It is but the reality of one of these types of contracts is that they are in fact pretty much un-enforceable.

By that I mean the cost for you to enforce it is likely to exceed the remuneration of the enforcement, so yes contracts are nice to have, when they mean something, but if they don’t they they don’t. The Lawyer is the winner, or Lawyers actually if you try to enforce it.

Example, you think a deposit by the prospective buyer means that as long as your aircraft passes the pre-buy then they have to purchase the aircraft, or you keep the deposit right?

Unless it’s some really unusual contract that I’ve not seen it doesn’t. The buyer can back out at any time, for pretty much any reason. 

Just as I’m pretty sure the seller can back out too, as a buyer you may get the money you spent on a pre-buy back if the seller is honest, but time and money traveling etc is most likely gone.

The system works because 99% of the time, especially if the prospective buyer has spent money they really do want to buy and by the time the seller has some time and money into it, they really do want to sell.

I have never seen a boat, car, airplane etc bought because the buyer was contractually obligated, maybe in a unusual circumstance like a partnership if there was a contract that stipulated if one of the partners lost their medical the other was allowed to buy them out at xxxxx dollars and if the partner wanted to then that’s an enforceable contract.

But the normal contract that I sign that says I agree to buy upon successful completion of a pre-buy and test flight isn’t.

It’s as simple as saying the Wife decided she didn’t like the color or it just didn’t handle well etc.

Edited July 2, 2023 by A64Pilot

[A64Pilot]

Yes selling or buying an airplane is pretty exactly the same as a larger boat.

Except boats are “surveyed” instead of a PPI,  and boat surveys are defined and surveyors are licensed as such, where airplane PPI’s aren’t. Banks and Insurance companies demand a survey from a credentialed surveyor and any discrepancies fixed. 

Sea Trial and test flight are the same 

[Andy95W]

For everyone who questions why an owner wouldn’t want to take his airplane to an unknown mechanic, and everyone who thinks that is a “huge red flag” to a potential buyer, I’ll refer you to a thread from just last week: ‘More Maintenance B$’.  It covers 4+ pages of questionable maintenance by “reputable” shops.  (I’m not talking about Dugosh, BTW.)

How do I, as owner, prevent some crappy mechanic from using an electric screwdriver and putting sheet metal screws into machine screw nut plates?  OTOH, a buyer can bring an independent mechanic to my hangar, use my tools, and look at whatever he/she wants.  I’ll even do most of the working opening it, jacking it, and closing it- saving the buyer a good amount of PPI money.  And if the deal goes through, I’ll provide 5 hours of my time as CFI doing the insurance check out.

 

 

[kortopates]

For everyone who questions why an owner wouldn’t want to take his airplane to an unknown mechanic, and everyone who thinks that is a “huge red flag” to a potential buyer, I’ll refer you to a thread from just last week: ‘More Maintenance B$’.  It covers 4+ pages of questionable maintenance by “reputable” shops.  (I’m not talking about Dugosh, BTW.)
How do I, as owner, prevent some crappy mechanic from using an electric screwdriver and putting sheet metal screws into machine screw nut plates?  OTOH, a buyer can bring an independent mechanic to my hangar, use my tools, and look at whatever he/she wants.  I’ll even do most of the working opening it, jacking it, and closing it- saving the buyer a good amount of PPI money.  And if the deal goes through, I’ll provide 5 hours of my time as CFI doing the insurance check out.
 
 

You sound very convinced the sale won’t go through. But the buyer really wants to purchase your plane at this point. Barring any significant airworthiness issues you can’t agree on a solution to, it won’t be your aircraft anymore.


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[Andy95W]

Paul-  you make a really good point.  If a potential buyer was really interested and was a good “fit” for my airplane, I wouldn’t hesitate flying it to a reputable shop for a PPI.  And if he/she really was a good fit, I’d do what I could to facilitate his completing the sale.

A less-than-serious buyer is a different matter, just as a less than reputable shop would be.

But I don’t relish the idea of flying to a shop 2 hours away and sitting for 8 hours, and then have the deal fall through.  How could my time be accounted for without violating the FARs?

[A64Pilot]

2 hours ago, Andy95W said:

How could my time be accounted for without violating the FARs?

I don’t understand this question? 

[Andy95W]

5 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

I don’t understand this question? 

Basically, are you allowed to be reimbursed for flight and ground time without being a part 135 or other type of commercial operation?

[kortopates]

Duty limits i suppose - these usually take a few days so shouldn’t be a factor. For one, there is a review of the findings reported by shop with buyer and then the go ahead to start the next phase. For another, these are always busy shops that are squeezing in the pre-buy around their already scheduled regular customers. the process typically takes a few days.
It’s common for the buyer to pay for a pilot that meets your insurance requirements or the owner may prefer to fly it. It varies.

I know you’re a special case Andy as a longtime owner IA that maintains his own aircraft and also a professional pilot. And if i was buying your aircraft, as a fellow IA, i would welcome your offer to do the pre-buy in your hangar with a handshake after knowing you for years here. But neither of us are the typical buyer and seller.


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[hubcap]

2 hours ago, Andy95W said:

Paul-  you make a really good point.  If a potential buyer was really interested and was a good “fit” for my airplane, I wouldn’t hesitate flying it to a reputable shop for a PPI.  And if he/she really was a good fit, I’d do what I could to facilitate his completing the sale.

A less-than-serious buyer is a different matter, just as a less than reputable shop would be.

But I don’t relish the idea of flying to a shop 2 hours away and sitting for 8 hours, and then have the deal fall through.  How could my time be accounted for without violating the FARs?

If I fly 2 hours to look at your plane and after an 8 hr inspection we discover your plane has a significant problem, are you going to compensate me for my time since I am not buying your un-airworthy aircraft?
 

Some of these issues are details that are just part of the territory. 99% or more of the time, buyers and sellers work out these issues between themselves without issues. 

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, Andy95W said:

Basically, are you allowed to be reimbursed for flight and ground time without being a part 135 or other type of commercial operation?

I’ve never even considered being re-imbursed, but I think either just leave out the aviation part and say you get paid x number of dollars for your personal time if deal falls out.

I’ve never asked for my time to be paid for, figured it was just sort of the costs associated with selling I guess.

Not saying you shouldn’t, just I’ve not thought of it, but then I likely wouldn’t consider a long flight across several States either, if I were then I’d ask for money to cover expenses and per-diem etc. I assume just ferrying an aircraft isn’t 135 ops?

I’ve paid ferry pilots to deliver new aircraft all over the world and I assume they were Commercial pilots, but it’s certainly not a 135 op, never came up really, what did was who owned it during the ferry flight, obviously we wanted the new owner to take possession, but pretty often the contract was they took possession upon delivery, so we had to buy insurance and they needed pilot qualifications of course, but what kind of operation never came up.

[Andy95W]

As a commercial pilot, it’s 100% legal for me to be reimbursed as a ferry pilot and fly someone else’s airplane.  But when you are being paid by someone else to fly your own airplane, it gets hinky.  I was just wondering if Paul could provide some info from his end (if he had any).

But yeah, like @hubcap said, these questions are usually resolved without issues.