What recourse do I have - extortionary mechanic

[goalstop]

Hi all,

Looking for some help here as I'm a bit desperate.  Will try to keep this short...

+ Went to a certified MSC to get a full panel overhaul on my M20 a year ago (including G5 install)

+ Install was completed with a good IFR cert

+ 5 hours after the install, all of my pitot/static fittings into my instruments shattered and airspeed dropped to 40kts in cruise.  Mechanic said they had "likely been sabotaged" by a thief

+ Mechanic replaced them, sent me on my way, and the exact same thing happened again 2 hours later.  Mechanic found it was due to faulty plastic fittings

+ When doing the 3rd IFR certification (after 2nd replacement), mechanic found that my right static port was leaking.  In the previous IFR cert, he had taped it over and only used my left static port, so it "wasn't discovered"

+ Searched for a new static port for 5 months (a saga in itself).  Finally found the part and installed.  Then, on the 4th IFR certification, mechanic found more leaks in the internal static system and discovered that my airspeed indicator diaphragm was broken.  None of these were found in the previous IFR certs.

+ In addition to all of this, I have had multiple issues with communication (calling 20 times over a month to get in touch with the mechanic, suggesting potential remedies (e.g., owner produced part) that are ignored, having to remind mechanic multiple times to fix smaller things, finding filthy fingerprints all over the exterior and new leather seats, etc.)

+ Mechanic now wants to charge me ~20 hours of work for all of these remedies, plus for the airspeed indicator repair, the oil change (which I wasn't able to use since it's now time for annual and the plane hasn't flown), and a bunch of other minor nickel-and-dime charges

I feel helpless - the amount of money I've dumped into this is FAR more than I ever expected, and I haven't even been able to fly the plane more than 30 hours since I bought it a year and a half ago, and I don't think I should be responsible for anything related to the pitot/static system since it was working perfectly before the fittings they installed started braking. (not to mention the danger I was in flying an instrument plan when they broke)

What would you all do in my shoes?  Do I have any recourse?  Is it fair to believe all of this is driven by the work that was done?

[EricJ]

Best thing to do is not take it back to that guy.   Find a different shop.   If nothing else it's definitely time to get another set of eyes on it.

[GeeBee]

When you "cut in" to an old system, things often cascade. When I had an Aspen installed in my SuperCub, all sorts of leaks started to develop. I had to completely re-plumb the pitot-static system. Garmin, Aspen et al like to pretend these are just "drop ins" but they usually require sensor replacement and the conduits from them. 

As for the mechanic. Pay him, and don't go back.

[Pinecone]

Faulty plastic fittings?  Where did they come from??  How did your airspeed diaphragm become damaged?  That normally happens with someone applies excessive air pressure to the pitot system.

You might want to question the bill for some of the work.  Maybe consider Savvy assistance.

But bottom line is, DON'T EVER GO BACK.

And tell us who it is.

[A64Pilot]

Question I have is why did you keep going bacK if you weren’t happy?

But in his defense on anything old once it’s open it up, it often grows arms and legs. Start moving and pulling on 40 yr old plastic tubing and fittings and as they are brittle they break.

The nightmare of 40 yr old wiring and a couple of avionics upgrades that leave all the old wiring in has to be experienced to be believed. In their defense it’s not possible to remove wiring that’s tie wrapped to other wiring every foot or so.

We had a program of replacing main spar caps that had timed out, but on average when we opened up 30 or 40 year old wings and started repairing or replacing every cracked rib, replacing corrosion damaged parts etc., the cost was more than a 40 year old set of wings was worth, cost was about 60% of the cost of a new set of wings, that had no AD’s and would outlast the airplane, so we stopped replacing wing spar caps. 

I just looked you airplane is approaching 60 yrs old and age takes it’s toll on airplanes just like people.

[thinwing]

he has probably spent 20 shop hours working on this....folks often forget when they are dealing with an almost 60 year old aircraft that anything can happen .I get you are frustrated with the time and expense but your experience is rather typical considering the age of your aircraft.Perhaps after paying the mechanic to fix all the squawks ,you should sell the Mooney and move on.

[1980Mooney]

3 hours ago, goalstop said:

Hi all, Looking for some help here as I'm a bit desperate.  Will try to keep this short...

+ Went to a certified MSC to get a full panel overhaul on my M20 a year ago (including G5 install)

+ Install was completed with a good IFR cert

+ 5 hours after the install, all of my pitot/static fittings into my instruments shattered and airspeed dropped to 40kts in cruise.  Mechanic said they had "likely been sabotaged" by a thief

This all started with work done by a MSC per the original statement by the OP.  Why not go back to them?  This "mechanic" was not involved until after the work done by the MSC had prematurely failed.  He may or may not be capable but he has been thrust into the middle of a problem that started with the MSC - and the "mechanic" is being blamed for it.  Have you spoken to the MSC?  They should have replaced all brittle tubing and disintegrating fittings.  This is not their first rodeo in working on a 60 year old Mooney. 

Edited December 16, 2022 by 1980Mooney

[A64Pilot]

On anything old it’s best to plan on overhauling any system that you have to work on, or to use the Star Trek analogy expect “cascade failures” if you don’t.

I’ll use an automotive example, many years ago I had a radiator hose blow on my VW Diesel Golf, now I could of replaced the blown hose, but it’s likely another one or heater hose could let go soon after and one after the other as the car was several years old and had about 200,000 miles on it.

So instead I replaced all the hoses and water pump and flushed the system.

As it was all new I never had any problem with that system again.

Then there is preventative maintenance, to replace the cam timing belt on a Mazda Miata the water pump has to be removed, it’s foolish to reinstall the old pump.

I used automotive examples assuming more are more familiar with them, but I’ve seen people pull a prop and put the old alternator belt back on, and I think that foolish.

 However I’ve been the guy trying to explain that one plastic fitting is so brittle that it broke just removing it that likely they are all brittle, best to change them all only to be told no, I only want to replace the one.

 

[goalstop]

30 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

This all started with work done by a MSC per the original statement by the OP.  Why not go back to them?  This "mechanic" was not involved until after the work done by the MSC had prematurely failed.  He may or may not be capable but he has been thrust into the middle of a problem that started with the MSC - and the "mechanic" is being blamed for it.  Have you spoken to the MSC?  They should have replaced all brittle tubing and disintegrating fittings.  This is not their first rodeo in working on a 60 year old Mooney. 

To be clear, the MSC did all the initial panel overhaul work, and the MSC is the one I've brought it back to to fix all of these issues.  All the same mechanic at the MSC.

[Jcmtl]

I think that's the nature of doing work on an airplane.   I also redid the panel last year and also had issues with the pitot static system come up requiring some new parts.  Ended up spending about 10 thousand more than the initial quote.  I'd say you should ask for a detailed invoice and scrutinize every hour of work in there to make sure you aren't being double billed or billed for something that should be repaired by them under warranty.  Maybe you can save a few thousand.  Other than that, as others have said, take your business elsewhere if you aren't happy.

I should also add that you don't need to deal with an MSC for avionics work.  A good mechanic with experience can work on any airplane.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Jcmtl

[1980Mooney]

9 minutes ago, goalstop said:

To be clear, the MSC did all the initial panel overhaul work, and the MSC is the one I've brought it back to to fix all of these issues.  All the same mechanic at the MSC.

Oh geez… There are a lot of complaints about poor quality of MSC‘s here on MS. There is an ongoing saga about one MSC that missed identifying serious corrosion in a pre-buy. Just ask @redbaron1982
 

The MSC is only as good as its People. The factory is just trying to survive as a parts supplier and obviously provides no audit or quality control of what used to be its dealer network.

 

[jetdriven]

Who is the shop

[chriscalandro]

If you didn’t replace the hoses or fittings in the system this sounds pretty normal. 
 

if you already have the airplane apart for avionics, redoing at least the static system is no big deal. 
 

any fittings that were touched should have not been reused. 

[Raymond J1]

20 hours is not much for this job on a 60-year-old machine.
Negotiate your bill (you have cleaned his fingerprints...) and don't come back to his house.

And don't make an IFR flight with an aircraft coming out of maintenance, test it on 5 or 10 hours of visual flight before.

[DCarlton]

I’m no expert but I’m really curious whether the plastic fittings and pitot static tubing was replaced with new or if those were old fittings.  I’m planning to overhaul my pilots side panel but I plan to refresh everything that can be refreshed to avoid rework.  The concept of static leaks in a non pressurized airplane makes my head hurt.  I’ve paid to have those chased twice.  I always dread IFR cents for that reason.  Ended up replacing my VSI the last time.  The first two years is the hardest; you’ll get the bugs out and it’ll get better but it’ll hurt getting there.  I spent about 40 percent of the initial purchase price in the first 2-3 years.  

[Guest]

Chasing and repairing static system leaks can be frustrating, the more complex the installation the tougher it can be, but I have to say that I’ve never heard of plastic fittings failing multiple times, the odd cracked aluminum fitting from over torque yes but they cause a very minor leak that won’t meet certification requirements.

 

[goalstop]

8 hours ago, Raymond J1 said:

20 hours is not much for this job on a 60-year-old machine.
Negotiate your bill (you have cleaned his fingerprints...) and don't come back to his house.

And don't make an IFR flight with an aircraft coming out of maintenance, test it on 5 or 10 hours of visual flight before.

My biggest issue is that the mechanic working on my plane told me multiple times that this was warranty work / I wouldn't be charged for it.  Then, the owner came in over the top and said they needed to charge for the static issues once the process had been sorted out.  On top of that, the owner put very high hours estimates for other legitimate line items I had him work on (e.g., 5 hours for an oil change), then "discounted" everything to make it look like he was acting in good faith (so my oil change got cut to just 4 hours at $150 an hour plus supplies) --> so a $800 oil change all-in.  I'd been verbally told an oil change was "a couple hours" before the work was done.

Had I known they were charging for this work all along, I would have taken the plane out of that shop SO fast and never come back.

[goalstop]

7 hours ago, DCarlton said:

I’m no expert but I’m really curious whether the plastic fittings and pitot static tubing was replaced with new or if those were old fittings.  I’m planning to overhaul my pilots side panel but I plan to refresh everything that can be refreshed to avoid rework.  The concept of static leaks in a non pressurized airplane makes my head hurt.  I’ve paid to have those chased twice.  I always dread IFR cents for that reason.  Ended up replacing my VSI the last time.  The first two years is the hardest; you’ll get the bugs out and it’ll get better but it’ll hurt getting there.  I spent about 40 percent of the initial purchase price in the first 2-3 years.  

I'm positive they were new fittings.  But they used the same brand/type of fitting on the second go-around and it happened a second time.

Yes - the idiocy of having to spend 6 months chasing parts and leaks in an unpressurized plane is not lost on me.  I appreciate your story - it makes me feel better that perhaps there is an end to this   I'm up to about 50% of the purchase price, so maybe I'm almost done???

++NOTE: Only 25% in required / reactive changes - the other 25% was proactive upgrades.  Although I think I need to do the fuel tanks soon :/ 

Edited December 17, 2022 by goalstop

[Yetti]

Older plastic fittings will shatter when exposed to environmental and or chemicals.    Someone might have used acetone or alcohol and the vapors permeated the system.   It's not pretty when they crumble in your hands.

The diaphragm was probably due to someone screwing up the static test.

Probably best to work with him and then later publish the invoice.   I don't have any letters behind my name and can do an oil change in a couple of hours, decowl and recowl and test flight and log book entry.

[201Steve]

Make yourself feel better by digging through here and reading about some real owner/shop discrepancies. 2k here, 2k there, his fault, their fault- this isn’t one to die on the hill for. Come to terms or find a new shop. Just accept that you’re a complete (financially speaking) moron for owning an airplane. I am too, but the love of it makes it easier to be another bozo on the bus. 

[Pinecone]

This is one of Mike Busch's points.  Written estimates and permission to go over that.  Explicitly what is charged and what is not.

[Fly Boomer]

3 hours ago, 201Steve said:

another bozo on the bus. 

[kortopates]

I don't get replacing the static drain - if it was a drain rather than port. I am sure all it needed was a new internal o-ring and re-sealing the screw in top. The metal drain has no wear points but the o-ring and the thread sealant can need replacement. There is also an internal spring and clevis pin I have never had to replace (causing the resistance when you push the clevis pin plunger in). Mooney has a SB on these too. 

Anyone told they need to replace the drain should first try just replacing the internal o-ring.

Edited December 18, 2022 by kortopates
corrected port to drain

[takair]

2 hours ago, kortopates said:

I don't get replacing the static port. I am sure all it needed was a new internal o-ring and re-sealing the screw in top. The metal port has no wear points but the o-ring and the thread sealant can need replacement. There is also an internal spring and clevis pin I have never had to replace (causing the resistance when you push the clevis pin plunger in). Mooney has a SB on these too. 

Anyone told they need to replace the port should first try just replacing the internal o-ring.

Paul

Are you referring to the static drain or the actual port on the aft side of the plane?  I can’t quite picture the oring and plunger on the ports.

[Guest]

13 hours ago, goalstop said:

My biggest issue is that the mechanic working on my plane told me multiple times that this was warranty work / I wouldn't be charged for it.  Then, the owner came in over the top and said they needed to charge for the static issues once the process had been sorted out.  On top of that, the owner put very high hours estimates for other legitimate line items I had him work on (e.g., 5 hours for an oil change), then "discounted" everything to make it look like he was acting in good faith (so my oil change got cut to just 4 hours at $150 an hour plus supplies) --> so a $800 oil change all-in.  I'd been verbally told an oil change was "a couple hours" before the work was done.

Had I known they were charging for this work all along, I would have taken the plane out of that shop SO fast and never come back.

Not that it makes a difference now, “A couple of hours” might make sense for many models, your 1964 has more than 100 screws to get the cowls open, unlike a J model with Camlocs your cowl does take longer than most others.