Mooney Stalls and Spins

[Ragsf15e]

59 minutes ago, Rspencer612 said:

I mean it’s certainly possible I wasn’t properly coordinated at the stall with enough or not enough right rudder, but I was actively watching it and correcting thorough the manuevers and got the similar result in all three. 

I’ve got an F, so different. However, if not perfectly coordinated in a power on stall (I usually use a good bit of power to simulate departure), it will definitely want to roll.  Mine will go either direction depending on which side your ball is off (even slightly).  

One nice thing to note is how aggressive the pull must be to stall it and the significant warning (buffet, horns, etc).

Another thing to try is to stall in a decent turn by pulling into an accelerated stall.  It’s good to see what the bank does to you and how it feels/reacts.

[Will.iam]

Best thing to do is stall it power off that will eliminate the torque issue and rudder input. If it still breaks right you have a stall strip issue. 

[carusoam]

Great thoughts gents!

Thanks for sharing them all…

Go MS!

 

Best regards,

-a-

[A64Pilot]

12 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Wouldn’t Torque cause a left break? My plane always rolls left performing power on stalls

Yes, I’m an old helicopter pilot, we add left pedal with power, not right so I think backwards sometimes.

Wonder if there is any history of a gear up or wing damage in this aircraft, or sometimes under power stalls can just drop one wing, power on are more violent and one wing WILL drop, usually, unless your Johnny on the spot with rudder and catch it before it really even starts. That’s my suspicion here, that an early aggressive application of rudder would have prevented the wing drop, but without experience in the aircraft and expecting the gentle nose drop of a normal power off stall can catch anyone off guard, then your trying to get it back up as opposed to preventing

The quoted limits I’m pretty sure are for power off stalls, and power on and off are very different. Some aircraft with forward CG’s, a Piper 140 comes to mind don’t actually stall power off, they literally just run out of elevator authority but the wings still flying, you can pull the yoke full back, hold it there and all she will do is sort of mush with some pitch excursions, but you can do turns using rudder etc. Exceedingly benign, so much so in my opinion stalls shouldn’t be demonstrated in them because they are so forgiving. You should be shown stalls in an aircraft that bites a little, once bit your more likely to avoid them.

Add power and it will actually stall and turns into a whole different animal.

I really, really don’t like doing departure stalls, you have to make me, the few times I’ve done them during Certification I was up at 10,000 ft wearing a parachute, helmet and boots, required by the FAA for completing dangerous tests. Some people get a kick at having to battle the aircraft for control, they become aerobatic pilots, peope like me don’t.

The guy linked to was some kind of aerobatic champion, long time air show performer etc. He will take you out and go as far as you want to, safely, even apparently inverted flat spins in I guess the Pitts. I call rides like that spin and pukes, I just don’t have the stomach for it, some do.

But I do think we should have done enough spins and recoveries that recovery is automatic, you just do it without having to think about it.

Many aircraft are Certified for spins, used to be no one would buy an aircraft that wasn’t, considered unsafe. I used to spin my C-140 every so often, but as I’ve gotten old and am no longer test flying I just don’t anymore.

I did a 20” power on stall, gear and flaps up in a C-210, prior to the break the rudder was buried and she didn’t try to get over on her back, she did go full over inverted, scared the stew out of me, I always though Cessna’s were nice gentle aircraft, didn’t bite. But to give her credit once power was pulled she recovered immediately.

My C-140 doesn’t like to spin, if you stall when the break occurs place full rudder into the direction you want to spin, she will rotate, but it’s not a spin. To spin either takes a goose of throttle or I bury the rudder prior to stall, burying the rudder puts her over on her back and she rolls out of that spinning. The little 140 spins so well and is so easy to recover you can pitck your recovery heading and nail it, it stops spinning almost the instant you release the rudder, I keep the elevator full up, if you don’t she is so nose down it will exceed VNE.

Taken years ago, before GoPro cameras existed. Notice how nose down a spin is, and that’s with the elevator held full back to the stops 

‘Forward one minute or so first minute is just level flight

 

[Will.iam]

I got my ppl in a c-140. Back then i was young, naïve and stupid. I thought what is the big deal with spins. The c-140 you had to keep full rudder and full back yoke just to keep it in the spin. Just let go of everything and the c-140 would fly itself right out in a second or two. Then I got exposed to spinning a T-37 and that was the total different animal in that if you didn’t follow the procedure exactly and swiftly go from full back to full forward stick like trying to punch through the instrument panel it would wrap up tighter into the spin. Thank god i was lucky back then and didn’t try spinning other aircraft with the thought they would react the same way as the c-140 or i would have probably been dead long ago. 

[A64Pilot]

41 minutes ago, Will.iam said:

I got my ppl in a c-140. Back then i was young, naïve and stupid. I thought what is the big deal with spins. The c-140 you had to keep full rudder and full back yoke just to keep it in the spin. Just let go of everything and the c-140 would fly itself right out in a second or two. Then I got exposed to spinning a T-37 and that was the total different animal in that if you didn’t follow the procedure exactly and swiftly go from full back to full forward stick like trying to punch through the instrument panel it would wrap up tighter into the spin. Thank god i was lucky back then and didn’t try spinning other aircraft with the thought they would react the same way as the c-140 or i would have probably been dead long ago. 

I think Cessna got it right way back then, the C-140 was a big departure from what they had been building, it was Cessna’s first airplane with wing struts for example.

But I think they are an exceptional trainer, any tailwheel teaches you to not be lazy with your feet, which I think important, but it also really stalls, you can feel it, a 140 has no stall warning, it’s all by feel and a 140 is actually pretty nimble and light on the controls, which is unusual for a trainer, but as you say if you get in over your head you can pretty much throw up your hands and she will sort things out by herself.

People who do their initial training in a Mooney or other complex airplane are missing a LOT of skills in my opinion, the more different airframes you fly and train in, the better a pilot you become in my opinion, everyone should get tailwheel training in my opinion, it’s fun, challenging, cheap and I think teaches you to use your feet.

Then the fact that’s it’s a 105-110 MPH cruise airplane on 85 HP makes it very efficient and frugal too, compared to Champs and Cubs it’s a much better flying airplane.

Champ may cruise at 85 MPH, Cub maybe 80 MPH but the 140 is at least 20 MPH faster on the same engine.

For us I think they are a good second airplane, one to just fly around to local grass strip fly ins etc. or go out and brush up on spins.

Best I think to learn them in a benign airplane that will show you them, teach you how to recover, but won’t hurt you.

I’ve never spun a Mooney, been close almost 40 years ago, don’t plan too, but my gut says they won’t recover like a 140, more like your T-37.

But a Military trainer if it’s a good one won’t be easy, it will require you to follow the procedure, but Military flying is different, training is much more demanding and should be, as a Civilian no one has shot at me

[Rspencer612]

To be fair, I sure wasn’t and am not looking to spin the Mooney!  Haha. I was just surprised at how easily it quickly it wanted too!

[A64Pilot]

17 minutes ago, Rspencer612 said:

To be fair, I sure wasn’t and am not looking to spin the Mooney!  Haha. I was just surprised at how easily it quickly it wanted to!

TANSTASFL, Which means there ain’t no such thing as a free lunch, in order to get high cruise speed off of limited power etc, you have to give up something, most high performance aircraft aren’t to put it simply safe to spin, they lack the stability.

Stall strips are on a Mooney precisely because it needs them, it needs them because that low drag laminar flow wing doesn’t have a benign stall. The stall strips make that section of wing stall first, so the stall begins inboard, if it tip stalls that pretty much means it’s going to try real hard to spin.

Until about a year ago there was a Video of a NASA test pilot spin testing a V tail Bonanza, first few spin entries were recoverable, then he tried one with opposite aileron when the wing dropped, that is he input some aileron to right the dropped wing, something I think most of us might do if caught off guard, well it really wrapped up, you could see he fought the thing for many turns, finally had to bail out.

Way I figure it, if a NASA test pilot couldn’t recover a Bo from a spin, what chance do I have? Our Mooney’s may be similar, I plan on not finding out, it’s prohibited, I figure there must be a reason, however I can’t imagine Mooney tried building a Military trainer that couldn’t be spun, maybe that one could? if so what’s the difference in it and say a J model?

Funny thing is that video if you find it is listed as private, we aren’t allowed to see it anymore. I assume Beech Lawyers got involved.

[A64Pilot]

This discusses the Video, think one of you guys with Google-fu could find a copy? It’s really an enlightening video

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/unhappy-end-to-a-nasa-spin-test-bonanza.60391/

[Shadrach]

44 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

Yes, I’m an old helicopter pilot, we add left pedal with power, not right so I think backwards sometimes.

Wonder if there is any history of a gear up or wing damage in this aircraft, or sometimes under power stalls can just drop one wing, power on are more violent and one wing WILL drop, usually, unless your Johnny on the spot with rudder and catch it before it really even starts. That’s my suspicion here, that an early aggressive application of rudder would have prevented the wing drop, but without experience in the aircraft and expecting the gentle nose drop of a normal power off stall can catch anyone off guard, then your trying to get it back up as opposed to preventing

The quoted limits I’m pretty sure are for power off stalls, and power on and off are very different. Some aircraft with forward CG’s, a Piper 140 comes to mind don’t actually stall power off, they literally just run out of elevator authority but the wings still flying, you can pull the yoke full back, hold it there and all she will do is sort of mush with some pitch excursions, but you can do turns using rudder etc. Exceedingly benign, so much so in my opinion stalls shouldn’t be demonstrated in them because they are so forgiving. You should be shown stalls in an aircraft that bites a little, once bit your more likely to avoid them.

Add power and it will actually stall and turns into a whole different animal.

I really, really don’t like doing departure stalls, you have to make me, the few times I’ve done them during Certification I was up at 10,000 ft wearing a parachute, helmet and boots, required by the FAA for completing dangerous tests. Some people get a kick at having to battle the aircraft for control, they become aerobatic pilots, peope like me don’t.

The guy linked to was some kind of aerobatic champion, long time air show performer etc. He will take you out and go as far as you want to, safely, even apparently inverted flat spins in I guess the Pitts. I call rides like that spin and pukes, I just don’t have the stomach for it, some do.

But I do think we should have done enough spins and recoveries that recovery is automatic, you just do it without having to think about it.

Many aircraft are Certified for spins, used to be no one would buy an aircraft that wasn’t, considered unsafe. I used to spin my C-140 every so often, but as I’ve gotten old and am no longer test flying I just don’t anymore.

I did a 20” power on stall, gear and flaps up in a C-210, prior to the break the rudder was buried and she didn’t try to get over on her back, she did go full over inverted, scared the stew out of me, I always though Cessna’s were nice gentle aircraft, didn’t bite. But to give her credit once power was pulled she recovered immediately.

My C-140 doesn’t like to spin, if you stall when the break occurs place full rudder into the direction you want to spin, she will rotate, but it’s not a spin. To spin either takes a goose of throttle or I bury the rudder prior to stall, burying the rudder puts her over on her back and she rolls out of that spinning. The little 140 spins so well and is so easy to recover you can pitck your recovery heading and nail it, it stops spinning almost the instant you release the rudder, I keep the elevator full up, if you don’t she is so nose down it will exceed VNE.

Taken years ago, before GoPro cameras existed. Notice how nose down a spin is, and that’s with the elevator held full back to the stops 

‘Forward one minute or so first minute is just level flight

 

I have done departure stalls in a number of different aircraft and I would not say that any are a gentle affair.  With full power, even the lowly C150 I trained in would hold a pretty high deck angle before the break and typical rolled off to the left.  The glider club's C150/150 tow plane was quite a bit more dramatic.  Lots of folks with more experience than me, but every airplane in which I have ever performed deep, full power, full break, coordinated, departure stalls broke to the left. My Mooney is no exception. 

 

 

[A64Pilot]

19 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I have done departure stalls in a number of different aircraft and I would not say that any are a gentle affair.  With full power, even the lowly C150 I trained in would hold a pretty high deck angle before the break and typical rolled off to the left.  The glider club's C150/150 tow plane was quite a bit more dramatic.  Lots of folks with more experience than me, but every airplane in which I have ever performed deep, full power, full break, coordinated, departure stalls broke to the left. My Mooney is no exception. 

 

 

C-210 broke left, but that was due to running out of rudder, before it broke rudder was buried and ball was out to the left. Higher power would have had it breaking sooner and harder.

Little Thrush, even empty and weight at 5500 or so and 800 HP breaks whichever way you allow it to, there is enough rudder to stop it, even the same airplane with a 1300 SHP -65 has enough rudder and it’s at least 500 lbs heavier with empty hopper

C-140 also can be controlled, but it’s only 85 HP.

I feel that tailwheel aircraft have more rudder than tricycle gear airplanes, because they have to as ground loops are a thing, Trucycle gear, especially more modern designs, don’t seem to have nearly as much, I guess because ground looping isn’t really a thing.

I’ve not measured but I believe my little 140 at 85 HP and 1450 gross weight has as much or possibly more rudder than a 300 HP Mooney, with what an over 3,000 Gross weight?

My Mooney’s rudder is roughly 1 ft x 6 ft and I’d bet is close to 6 sq ft of area

The C-140 is 21”x 51” but it’s roundish so zi don’t know surface area.

I assume travel in degrees is similar.

[mike_elliott]

15 hours ago, Rspencer612 said:

Stall strips in place where required, Rigging was just confirmed at this annual by IA. Said it was spot on with the M20J service manual……

They might be in place, but are they placed correctly? Something is out of whack, and it can only be the rigging or stall strip placement, or your not as coordinated as you might think when it stalls. 

[mike_elliott]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

TANSTASFL, Which means there ain’t no such thing as a free lunch, in order to get high cruise speed off of limited power etc, you have to give up something, most high performance aircraft aren’t to put it simply safe to spin, they lack the stability.

Stall strips are on a Mooney precisely because it needs them, it needs them because that low drag laminar flow wing doesn’t have a benign stall. The stall strips make that section of wing stall first, so the stall begins inboard, if it tip stalls that pretty much means it’s going to try real hard to spin.

Until about a year ago there was a Video of a NASA test pilot spin testing a V tail Bonanza, first few spin entries were recoverable, then he tried one with opposite aileron when the wing dropped, that is he input some aileron to right the dropped wing, something I think most of us might do if caught off guard, well it really wrapped up, you could see he fought the thing for many turns, finally had to bail out.

Way I figure it, if a NASA test pilot couldn’t recover a Bo from a spin, what chance do I have? Our Mooney’s may be similar, I plan on not finding out, it’s prohibited, I figure there must be a reason, however I can’t imagine Mooney tried building a Military trainer that couldn’t be spun, maybe that one could? if so what’s the difference in it and say a J model?

Funny thing is that video if you find it is listed as private, we aren’t allowed to see it anymore. I assume Beech Lawyers got involved.

way back in the day when it was cool to spin airplanes, I had to demonstrate a cross controlled stall in my Mooney for my CFI ride. The FAA examiner was an old hand aerobatic pilot who re-assured me after my objection "life will continue" and so it was...I was ready for it but it snapped hard. Perhaps someone who hasnt been spin trained, expecting the spin, and briefed the recovery and comforted by a real acro pro in the seat next to him might not have been able to correct before things got really pear shaped.

In other words, keep it coordinated and stay a bit away from that part of the flight envelope. Get a Pitts if you want to have your ass above your brain.

[A64Pilot]

6 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

They might be in place, but are they placed correctly? Something is out of whack, and it can only be the rigging or stall strip placement, or your not as coordinated as you might think when it stalls. 

It’s not real uncommon for an aircraft in an accident or during the repair for the wing twist to be slightly altered. I ding know about Mooney but many aircraft have a degree or degree and a half washout, even a half degree or less change can make a big difference.

Just one possibility 

[EricJ]

12 hours ago, Will.iam said:

Best thing to do is stall it power off that will eliminate the torque issue and rudder input. If it still breaks right you have a stall strip issue. 

It could just be mis-rigged, too.    If the flaps aren't symmetric it might favor breaking one way or other.

[PT20J]

2 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

The quoted limits I’m pretty sure are for power off stalls, and power on and off are very different.

CAR 3 certification limits were for power off and power not less than required for a 300 fpm climb with gear up, takeoff flaps. They had to be done with gear up and down, flaps in any position, and least favorable CG.

The procedure calls for trimming to 1.4 Vs, pitching to slightly below stall speed and the reducing speed at the rate of 1 mph per second until the stall break.

[A64Pilot]

9 minutes ago, EricJ said:

It could just be mis-rigged, too.    If the flaps aren't symmetric it might favor breaking one way or other.

If one flap is down more it WILL make the wing drop, in adjusting aileron trim tabs I had an excessive amount of tab once so I tried drooping the flap just a smidge, that was a mistake because even in a power off stall it dropped the wing hard.

Tutned out replacing the aileron fixed the issue, never did figure out what was wrong, it looked fine and pinned up in the jig. 

[jaylw314]

A little OT but I recall reading an EAA article that I can no longer find.  An aerobatic instructor suggested that, for most GA planes, if you're in an unexpected spin and have the altitude, to simply aggressively pull the throttle to idle, aggressively center the controls, and wait until the rotation stops.  He had an eye-opening video of the standard technique of opposite rudder and pushing the yoke forwards flipping a plane from a well-developed spin into an inverted flat spin, and noted that most pilots have no experience or idea how to recover from an inverted spin.  He claimed the altitude loss during recovery was only a little more.

I wish I could find that article and video, but I couldn't find it.

Edited December 1, 2022 by jaylw314

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

C-210 broke left, but that was due to running out of rudder, before it broke rudder was buried and ball was out to the left. Higher power would have had it breaking sooner and harder.

Little Thrush, even empty and weight at 5500 or so and 800 HP breaks whichever way you allow it to, there is enough rudder to stop it, even the same airplane with a 1300 SHP -65 has enough rudder and it’s at least 500 lbs heavier with empty hopper

C-140 also can be controlled, but it’s only 85 HP.

I feel that tailwheel aircraft have more rudder than tricycle gear airplanes, because they have to as ground loops are a thing, Trucycle gear, especially more modern designs, don’t seem to have nearly as much, I guess because ground looping isn’t really a thing.

I’ve not measured but I believe my little 140 at 85 HP and 1450 gross weight has as much or possibly more rudder than a 300 HP Mooney, with what an over 3,000 Gross weight?

My Mooney’s rudder is roughly 1 ft x 6 ft and I’d bet is close to 6 sq ft of area

The C-140 is 21”x 51” but it’s roundish so zi don’t know surface area.

I assume travel in degrees is similar.

I am sure I could get it drop off to the right with minimal rudder input, but with everything centered, it consistently goes left with the power on. I attribute this to torque. We dismiss it as a little 4 banger but at full power and 2700rpm it is making well over 350 ft lbs.

[A64Pilot]

21 minutes ago, PT20J said:

CAR 3 certification limits were for power off and power not less than required for a 300 fpm climb with gear up, takeoff flaps. They had to be done with gear up and down, flaps in any position, and least favorable CG.

The procedure calls for trimming to 1.4 Vs, pitching to slightly below stall speed and the reducing speed at the rate of 1 mph per second until the stall break.

I’ve done it during cert test flights and every aircraft I did a production test flight on, stall warning was to occur 5 to 10 mph prior to break.

I had forgotten the power on part, probably because for a Thrush it was a check the box test flt, Thrush stalls about like a Piper 140 and bucks and kicks and rattles before the break, it only really breaks at aft CG limit.

[A64Pilot]

23 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I am sure I could get it drop off to the right with minimal rudder input, but with everything centered, it consistently goes left with the power on. I attribute this to torque. We dismiss it as a little 4 banger but at full power and 2700rpm it is making well over 350 ft lbs.

I don’t disbelieve you at all, we need to remember the ball is just a level, it’s a level fuselage indicator, it does not know or display aerodynamic trim. Assumption is fuselage level, in trim, but as you say with 350 lbs of torque, is it? 

Back to the helicopter thing, due to tail rotor thrust pushing a helicopter to the right if the ball is centered a helicopter does not fly a straight line, it drifts right, (US helicopter) it’s called translating tendency. It’s like a permeant left crosswind, aerodynamic trim on the AH-64 if memory serves was one ball out, we discovered this shooting rockets running fire, before first Gulf war doctrine was shoot from a hover, but in a desert where the dirt is like Talcum powder a hover threw up a signature that could be seen for miles. Shoot the dot in the big brown cloud. So we had to relearn what I’m sure our Vietnam Brothers knew.

[Shadrach]

26 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

I don’t disbelieve you at all, we need to remember the ball is just a level, it’s a level fuselage indicator, it does not know or display aerodynamic trim. Assumption is fuselage level, in trim, but as you say with 350 lbs of torque, is it? 

Back to the helicopter thing, due to tail rotor thrust pushing a helicopter to the right if the ball is centered a helicopter does not fly a straight line, it drifts right, (US helicopter) it’s called translating tendency. It’s like a permeant left crosswind, aerodynamic trim on the AH-64 if memory serves was one ball out, we discovered this shooting rockets running fire, before first Gulf war doctrine was shoot from a hover, but in a desert where the dirt is like Talcum powder a hover threw up a signature that could be seen for miles. Shoot the dot in the big brown cloud. So we had to relearn what I’m sure our Vietnam Brothers knew.

Very interesting reading. Surprised there was not a better way of displaying aerodynamic trim which I assume would vary with speed.  Perhaps there is now. I wonder if the current military helos even have a ball in tube.

[Fly Boomer]

15 hours ago, Will.iam said:

Best thing to do is stall it power off that will eliminate the torque issue and rudder input. If it still breaks right you have a stall strip issue. 

Bingo!

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, PT20J said:

CAR 3 certification limits were for power off and power not less than required for a 300 fpm climb with gear up, takeoff flaps. They had to be done with gear up and down, flaps in any position, and least favorable CG.

The procedure calls for trimming to 1.4 Vs, pitching to slightly below stall speed and the reducing speed at the rate of 1 mph per second until the stall break.

Did CAR3 cert require it be done at MGW?  300FPM does not require a lot of power on a standard day.  

[PT20J]

The Cherokee series has the most benign stall characteristics of light GA airplanes I've flown. Held in a power off stall, the nose just bobs up and down as it flies in and out of stall and you can keep the wings level with the rudder. I can hold my M20J in a stall and keep it straight the rudder, but it's like standing on a beach ball -- very touchy, and eventually it will get away from me and drop a wing. This is not the same as it dropping a wing abruptly at the break, but it does show that the Mooney wing drop characteristics are very sensitive to sideslip.

Note also the specified technique for the test: Trim to 1.4 Vs and decelerate at 1 (knot/mph, at these speeds it doesn't matter) per second. If you don't trim for 1.4, the stick forces are high and if you haul back it will stall at a higher speed (due to g-load) and stall more abruptly.

It never hurts to review the spin recovery technique :PARE (Power off, ailerons neutral, rudder full opposite rotation, elevator briskly forward). 

According to CAR 3, all normal category airplanes had to be placarded against spins unless they are characteristically incapable of spinning. Nonetheless, CAR 3 required that they be shown to recover from a one turn spin in one and a half turns. Spins are not fully developed until 1.5 - 2 turns and a fully developed stall may be harder (or impossible) to recover from. But keep in mind that Mooney probably only tested this once per model and that would have been with a new, perfectly rigged airplane.

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