Landing power reduction

[T. Peterson]

1 hour ago, Bigdaddie said:

I was based in DFW from like 1993-1997 flying for Wings West - American Eagle and again from 1998 - 2000 flying the MD88 Mad Dog for Delta.  I had a crash pad in Hurst near Bell Helicopter.  We had a blast but many of our adventures cannot be disclosed on a public forum.  I said I would NEVER return to Texas but being a California native and seeing how this state is progressing, a migration east is not out of the question.  Come on over to Delta.  You can teach me some Airbus stuff.  I was on the 757/767 for 18 out my 25 years here so the transition to the Airbus A350 has been a serious test of my cognitive abilities to say the least.

Take care,

Steve 

I think with retirement coming next year I better stay put!

If you ever want to scope out our area PM me for my information and you are welcome to come stay with my wife and I while you explore for a place to live. We bought our place with a view to be helpful  to others.

Blessings,

Torrey

[KSMooniac]

I understand the value of AOA. but why Alpha?

I liked the simplicity of no moving parts, the very intuitive symbology of the display/indicator, and especially the ability to put the display on the glare shield in the field of view. I did not want the display on the panel, which would require significant eye movements to read it when I should be looking outside. I wired the audio alert into an un-switched input on my audio panel too, which is helpful in an engine-out glide so eyes can stay outside looking for a landing spot.

Yes, I know it isn't a true AOA, but it works very well for the intended purpose and is a safety enhancer with no down side IMO.

Sent from my LM-V600 using Tapatalk

[ilovecornfields]

I’m not an airline pilot or a CFI, but the best advice I ever got for landing a Mooney was to “try not to let it land.” Almost all my problems were from coming in too fast and trying to force it to land. If I just barely hold it off the runway until it can’t fly anymore the landing are smooth and if I came in at the right speed (varies on weight, of course) then I get little to no float. I usually pull the power to idle as I’m starting the flare but sometimes it’s earlier or later depending on how badly I managed my energy.

Vortex generators seem to help quite a bit at low speeds as well. 

[jaylw314]

On 10/24/2022 at 2:57 PM, Bigdaddie said:

By having the trimmable horizontal stabilizer, you get much more elevator authority with trim. I just worry about go around elevator forces which should not be an issue IF you're paying close attention.

Go-arounds with full flaps and nose-up trim can be done one-handed if you're prepared.  It's easier to push than pull against a load.  On such go-arounds, I'm usually holding the nose down without trim until I'm past 200' AGL or so.  It's only then I start messing with flaps and trim.

[Schllc]

Some really good advice here, some of which I have employed, and some of which I am going to be trying out in the future. 
The challenge I have is that I live at in incredibly busy airport for private jets, as well as a couple of flight schools and the normal traffic.  I also seldom fly without filing ifr.
I do my best to avoid uncontrolled fields, which is another discussion, but relevant to “pattern”, as it’s been discussed in nearly every post. 
I would venture to say that one in 20 of my landings, if that many, follow a full pattern.  9 of 10 are some variant of a slam dunk of 10,000 feet 10 miles from the airport or a report midfield, interrupted with a direct to the numbers to get inside a jet on a 10 mile final doing twice my speed. 
All of these ideals are pretty difficult to replicate when you have wildly different approaches. 
To be clear, I am mostly referring to the reference points like on downwind, or abeam the numbers etc. These are just not regular things in my world unless I go out to an uncontrolled field or a slow enough one to request this. 
Whatever method you use, being at the right altitude, the right speed and the right MP on final are all immutable for a good landing.
Violate any of those and you will have issues.   
I believe while the methods described by the guys here who have forgotten more than I’ll ever know about mooney’s are valid and sound, there is a heck lot of “feel” required as well to get to that place, and while that may not be teachable, it is no less relevant. 
Fly often, know your airplanes behavior and characteristics and know when things are just too out of tune to try the landing. 

 

[GeeBee]

13 hours ago, Bigdaddie said:

I was based in DFW from like 1993-1997 flying for Wings West - American Eagle and again from 1998 - 2000 flying the MD88 Mad Dog for Delta.  I had a crash pad in Hurst near Bell Helicopter.  We had a blast but many of our adventures cannot be disclosed on a public forum.  I said I would NEVER return to Texas but being a California native and seeing how this state is progressing, a migration east is not out of the question.  Come on over to Delta.  You can teach me some Airbus stuff.  I was on the 757/767 for 18 out my 25 years here so the transition to the Airbus A350 has been a serious test of my cognitive abilities to say the least.

Take care,

Steve 

It takes at least 3 years for a Boeing guy to get comfortable in the Airbus. Just remember her name is  "Fifi" and Fifi does not like to be pushed around but she can be handled if you push the right buttons on her.

[slowflyin]

13 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

I understand the value of AOA. but why Alpha?

I'll chime in.  I've flown several different AOA systems.  For me, most had limited use.  I finally took Mark's advice and spent the extra cash for the heads-up display.  Wow, it was a game changer for me.    Having the display above the panel in my field of view while looking at my aiming point made the difference.  Easily 5 knots off my landings.   Adding the Landing Height System smoothed things out even more.  

My son started flying my Bravo recently and there is no doubt the combination of the AOA and LHS has been a significant. Find the 3-degree GS, pitch to the blue dot (cross checking AS), manage the power to stay on GS, and pull to idle 4 or 5 foot off the deck.  Smooth, accurate, and consistent.  

Finally, Garmin's Visual Approach is great for learning the site picture for a 3-degree approach.   At some airports it utilizes the published visual some your results may vary.  

All of these tools have helped to present and engrain the correct sight picture.  For me they are particularly helpful if I've been out of the AC for a couple weeks.  For my son, they are accelerating his learning.  

[JayMatt]

On 10/24/2022 at 3:23 PM, Bigdaddie said:

I have a M20K 231.  I have been playing with landing configuration such as landing with 2/3 flaps and such to improve my landings (it doesn't help that my day job is flying an Airbus A350, a little different sight picture)!  When does everyone reduce the power to idle on a normal landing (no extreme winds or crazy conditions)?  I want to pull power over the airport boundary, but the sink rate increase makes me very uncomfortable.  I tend to pull the power just prior to the numbers but I feel like I have too much energy in the flare even though I get the stall warning prior to touchdown.  I rarely bounce and feel like touchdown is at a fairly high elevator defection.  It's just the short delay between main and nose gear touchdown that gets my attention.

I am a low time Mooney pilot and did get a checkout prior to flying the airplane.  It seems like the more I fly it the worse my landings are.  I just want to be safe and thus consulting you Mooney EXPERTS.  BTW, I am not totally unexperienced as I am a CFII, MEI, ATP with about 15,000 hrs of flight time.  As I say, I'm only a little smarter than the next guy because I admit my limitations.

Thanks everyone.  The support on this forum is awesome and I am proud to be part of the Mooney community. 

As  a fairly new owner going on one year and just now crossing 100 hours I may be able to chime in on what worked for me. I'm a terrible pilot compared to probably everyone on here but I land the mooney pretty well I think. Probably because I've flown it more than any other plane so I don't have other habits. 

On final I like to have 2/3 to full flaps @ 15 mp (cowl flaps open helps too) I would cross the fence at 75kts and not drop to full idle till I'm 25foot off the ground or so. Once I started hitting these exact numbers I no longer had a problem. 5 foot off with no throttle I just don't let it land. If it starts to sink and you just let it land like any other small plane it will bounce. 

My AME told me that he used to land his by taking the flaps out 5 feet off the runway and it greased the landing every time. I haven't had the nerve to try that yet and it doesn't sound all that safe to me but he lives on a little bitty 22' wide strip that 2700' long. I guess it just worked for him...

[N201MKTurbo]

My logbook says I have landed a Mooney 4600 times. I'm sure its more than that, but not the 25000 that Don says. After 39 years of Mooney flying, I don't think about how I land it, I just land it. Short and smooth every time. I consider squeakers bad landings, if you barely brush the wheels on the pavement, they will spin up without squeaking.

[Austintatious]

What I do to make nice landings is these 2 things... Speedbrakes out all the way down and as I go into the roundout/flair, I very very slowly start pulling the power all the way to idle... then fly it on.

Works great.

[WAFI]

55 minutes ago, JayMatt said:

As  a fairly new owner going on one year and just now crossing 100 hours I may be able to chime in on what worked for me. I'm a terrible pilot compared to probably everyone on here but I land the mooney pretty well I think. Probably because I've flown it more than any other plane so I don't have other habits. 

On final I like to have 2/3 to full flaps @ 15 mp (cowl flaps open helps too) I would cross the fence at 75kts and not drop to full idle till I'm 25foot off the ground or so. Once I started hitting these exact numbers I no longer had a problem. 5 foot off with no throttle I just don't let it land. If it starts to sink and you just let it land like any other small plane it will bounce. 

My AME told me that he used to land his by taking the flaps out 5 feet off the runway and it greased the landing every time. I haven't had the nerve to try that yet and it doesn't sound all that safe to me but he lives on a little bitty 22' wide strip that 2700' long. I guess it just worked for him...

I don't retract my flaps in the air but as soon as my mains touch or as my nose wheel taps the runway I hit the switch. I find that is helps in gusty winds and rainy days, really plants the plane to the runway.

[Bigdaddie]

4 hours ago, WAFI said:

I don't retract my flaps in the air but as soon as my mains touch or as my nose wheel taps the runway I hit the switch. I find that is helps in gusty winds and rainy days, really plants the plane to the runway.

I'm not a fan of touching the flaps or anything other than the throttle while on the runway.  The only exception to this would be on very short runways you could retract the flaps to increase weight on wheels and thus brake effectively.  Our airport is not very busy, so I typically roll to the end of the 3,200’ runway to save the brakes.  I do make configuration changes once down to taxi speed since there is no hurry to exit.

[Hank]

6 hours ago, WAFI said:

I don't retract my flaps in the air but as soon as my mains touch or as my nose wheel taps the runway I hit the switch. I find that is helps in gusty winds and rainy days, really plants the plane to the runway.

I raise flaps with one finger while holding the throttle against the Idle stop. That puts weight on the wheels. Then I slow to 50 before braking. Still easily make the midfield turnoff at home, 5000' foot field.

[81X]

In my K 231, I like to carry some speed through the base to final turns and then chop the power over the fence at my home drome as the runways are long and approaches clear.  It will float further than you think in a descent when you have some extra speed, even with a three blade. All of this at half flaps as you’re configured well for a go around; taking out half flaps in an electric flap Mooney is not easy in a go around situation.  

At shorter fields, full flaps and I make sure I’m on speed.  
 

As someone else said, just try to keep it flying just above the runway surface and it will settle in nicely. 

[DCarlton]

I’d like to share a thought that came to mind this week during a couple of flights.  Comments welcome.  Right or wrong, when taking off, I tend to hold my plane on the runway until it’s more than ready to fly.  With takeoff flaps, I’ve noticed over time that it starts to skitter and dance and want to fly at about the same speed every time (unless high DA conditions are encountered).  It dawned on me that I can’t expect my plane to land and stick with takeoff or greater flaps if I’m near the runway in ground effect at speeds higher than those observed taking off.  With that in mind, I’m trying to slow my speeds a tad more and trust the numbers.  So far so good.  My landings seem to be improving.  And BTW, with a three blade, I use a tad of power until I’m ready to land; I’m guessing it’s just enough power to offset or eliminate the drag from the prop.  When you pull to idle the additional drag puts you on the runway.  My theory anyway.   Not a CFI or pro pilot.  

[donkaye]

48 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

I’d like to share a thought that came to mind this week during a couple of flights.  Comments welcome.  Right or wrong, when taking off, I tend to hold my plane on the runway until it’s more than ready to fly.  With takeoff flaps, I’ve noticed over time that it starts to skitter and dance and want to fly at about the same speed every time (unless high DA conditions are encountered).  It dawned on me that I can’t expect my plane to land and stick with takeoff or greater flaps if I’m near the runway in ground effect at speeds higher than those observed taking off.  With that in mind, I’m trying to slow my speeds a tad more and trust the numbers.  So far so good.  My landings seem to be improving.  And BTW, with a three blade, I use a tad of power until I’m ready to land; I’m guessing it’s just enough power to offset or eliminate the drag from the prop.  When you pull to idle the additional drag puts you on the runway.  My theory anyway.   Not a CFI or pro pilot.  

When taking off, the plane should not "skitter or dance" on the ground before liftoff.  Use what Bob Krommer calls "The Mooney Pull", about a 5 pound control pressure pull in the yoke as speed is gained on the takeoff roll.  The plane will fly itself off when it is ready to fly without "skittering and dancing".

Regarding "It dawned on me....", you're talking apples and oranges.  When taking off you have much more airflow over the wing due to full power.  When landing you are at idle power, less airflow over the wing.  Don't try to compare takeoff performance with landing performance.

[rickseeman]

On 10/24/2022 at 1:23 PM, Bigdaddie said:

  I want to pull power over the airport boundary, but the sink rate increase makes me very uncomfortable. 

When I got my high performance/retract signoff my instructor said that most high performance/retracts want you to carry some power to land, then chop the power at touchdown. It sounds like that program would help your situation.

[jaylw314]

16 hours ago, 81X said:

All of this at half flaps as you’re configured well for a go around; taking out half flaps in an electric flap Mooney is not easy in a go around situation.  

I'd say full flaps is fine for almost all situations with electric flaps.  On a go-around, there's no magic 'half'-flaps setting--I just flip the switch, count to 3, then flip it back down to get about half flaps in my plane.  It doesn't have to be exact or anything

 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

I'd say full flaps is fine for almost all situations with electric flaps.  On a go-around, there's no magic 'half'-flaps setting--I just flip the switch, count to 3, then flip it back down to get about half flaps in my plane.  It doesn't have to be exact or anything

 

Wow, your plane is fancy! My flap switch is a toggle, I have to hold it as long as I want the flaps to move . . . .

[tmo]

So, what are the CB ways of knowing what a 3 degree sight picture in my Mooney is?

PAPIs at / ILS/RNAV approach to a commercial airport? I guess I do need the 6 HITS anyway.

Some kind of AoA device, fancy top of the line Garmin gear? Doesn't necessarily pass the CB test.

Or is it enough to calculate a distance, height, and target descent rate at approach speed? Is that precise enough, or am I too optimistic?

Home field does not have any approaches, and no instrumentation.

[jaylw314]

32 minutes ago, Hank said:

Wow, your plane is fancy! My flap switch is a toggle, I have to hold it as long as I want the flaps to move . . . .

LOL, no, it's that 3-way switch that is momentary down and toggle up.  Is that not the same switch they use in short-bodies with electric flaps?

[jaylw314]

20 minutes ago, tmo said:

So, what are the CB ways of knowing what a 3 degree sight picture in my Mooney is?

PAPIs at / ILS/RNAV approach to a commercial airport? I guess I do need the 6 HITS anyway.

Some kind of AoA device, fancy top of the line Garmin gear? Doesn't necessarily pass the CB test.

Or is it enough to calculate a distance, height, and target descent rate at approach speed? Is that precise enough, or am I too optimistic?

Home field does not have any approaches, and no instrumentation.

Hold your index and middle finger together at arm's length.  They're about 3 degrees wide

[donkaye]

32 minutes ago, tmo said:

So, what are the CB ways of knowing what a 3 degree sight picture in my Mooney is?

PAPIs at / ILS/RNAV approach to a commercial airport? I guess I do need the 6 HITS anyway.

Some kind of AoA device, fancy top of the line Garmin gear? Doesn't necessarily pass the CB test.

Or is it enough to calculate a distance, height, and target descent rate at approach speed? Is that precise enough, or am I too optimistic?

Home field does not have any approaches, and no instrumentation.

It took me a number of years of teaching to realize how important slope was in the landing process.  Before I got my CFI and began teaching I didn't place enough emphasis on it.  Over time the epiphany came to light that the rate of descent and rate of pitch up in the flare worked so smoothly at the 3° slope.  Most people just wing it on final without placing attention on it.  Putting your attention on it as part of the landing process is a good start.  Most of my transition training students hadn't ever put any attention on it.  I'd say it takes between 10 and 15 landings with an instructor or someone who recognizes the sight picture of the 3° slope and calls it out to you, before it gets imprinted in your head.  It's a lot easier with a PAPI or VASI, but even with those aids there's room for error because those aids guide you down to the VASI or PAPI position and not the runway threshold.

A really cheap way to get the sight picture is to play my landing video over and over again.  It's only $25.  After costs (Disks, DVD case, Disk Label material, Mailer, and Mailing costs), I barely break even on it, so it is more of a service than a profit making endeavor.  https://donkaye.com/landing-video

[Shadrach]

12 minutes ago, tmo said:

So, what are the CB ways of knowing what a 3 degree sight picture in my Mooney is?

PAPIs at / ILS/RNAV approach to a commercial airport? I guess I do need the 6 HITS anyway.

Some kind of AoA device, fancy top of the line Garmin gear? Doesn't necessarily pass the CB test.

Or is it enough to calculate a distance, height, and target descent rate at approach speed? Is that precise enough, or am I too optimistic?

Home field does not have any approaches, and no instrumentation.

I’m sure I will get flamed for this. But I’m not sure that 3° is always ideal. Sure if you’re flying a precision approach, or a night approach using a PAPI/VASI. That being said, powering down a 3° slope with power is not particularly difficult. It also leaves you a single option in the event of a power plant failure…landing short of the runway. As much as we may like to think we have little personal airliners should be operated as airliners, I believe there is great utility in becoming proficient at flying steeper power off approaches.

Judging approach slope without external assistance is challenging.

I was taught to hold the runway at a fixed point on the glareshield.

 

[PT20J]

I don't have any problem with a steeper approach. The biggest issues I see with people that are having trouble landing is flying too shallow an approach and not shifting their gaze toward the far end of the runway as they fly over the threshold. Either of these habits make judging height much more difficult. 

Mooney pilots seem obsessed with approach speed, but, within reason, it's not that critical. If you are a little fast, you just float longer and just need to be patient. True, if you are trying to shoehorn it into a 1500' strip, you better be on speed, but with a normal length runway, just be reasonable. At approach speeds, the airspeed stability is lower and it takes a lot of work to keep the speed within a knot or two. A steady glidepath is more important than constant airspeed. 

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