Tri-flow for front seat rail lubrication?

[joepilotmooney]

Recently my seat rails have become very sticky and I've see Tri-flow mentioned in threads on site. I think a long time ago I had used white lithium grease spray. What are all of you using for this application please?

[PT20J]

Get a block of paraffin wax and rub that on the rails periodically. It won’t leave an oily residue, stain your carpet or leave an odor. It’s also good to oil the rollers from time to time with Tri-flow or any light oil.

Skip

[DCarlton]

2 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Get a block of paraffin wax and rub that on the rails periodically. It won’t leave an oily residue, stain your carpet or leave an odor. It’s also good to oil the rollers from time to time with Tri-flow or any light oil.

Skip

Hi Skip.  A slight thread deviation.  I'm in annual now.  I used Tri-flow on my yokes and rod joints behind the panel last time because it has an acceptable smell inside the cabin.  The yokes seem a little sticky now; they chatter when you move them in and out to the extremes.  What lube would you recommend?  Thanks! 

[A64Pilot]

Any oil or grease will attract dirt and or dust, gritty oil or grease will act like a valve grinding compound and cause wear.

I’d advise removing the seats, cleaning the rollers and tracks and using a dry film lubricant spray like this, that won’t attract dirt etc.

https://www.amazon.com/DuPont-Non-Stick-Dry-Film-Lubricant-Aerosol/dp/B003UTX0R8/ref=sr_1_5?crid=3E1R1LLO53V96&keywords=dry+lube+with+teflon+spray&qid=1663692459&sprefix=dry+lube+%2Caps%2C184&sr=8-5

There are other brands of course like sail kote 

I used it on my main sail where it slid inside of a track, it’s not staining and completely dry, I believe it leaves behind a thin layer of teflon, Dupont invented teflon, a lot of junk products used to claim miracles from containing teflon, but this isn’t snake oil.

[PT20J]

9 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

Hi Skip.  A slight thread deviation.  I'm in annual now.  I used Tri-flow on my yokes and rod joints behind the panel last time because it has an acceptable smell inside the cabin.  The yokes seem a little sticky now; they chatter when you move them in and out to the extremes.  What lube would you recommend?  Thanks! 

Mooney has used a number of different bushings where the yoke goes through the panel and there are different lube recommendations. Also, some shafts are chrome plated. If yours has the solid block that pivots with the shaft going through the middle, I think I would clean it with something mild like spraying in contact cleaner. If the shaft is chrome, I would clean it really well and the spray it with silicone spray,

The nylatron ball joint type bushings tend to tighten up and get sticky. This may be from dust and lubricant. The later service manuals say not to lube them. I replaced mine when I had the panel redone because it was easy then and very difficult later. The new ones were smoother than the old, but even they were not perfectly smooth. If you have these, I would try to clean them with contact cleaner and leave them dry and again clean and lube the shafts with silicone.

Skip

[Skates97]

Make sure the rollers are in good condition. Over the years they get worn down and then they start to gouge out the rails resulting in replacement of the rails. I recently replaced the rollers and while the old ones weren't in terrible shape and the new ones made a big difference. I have never used any lubricant on the rails, they roll very nicely.

The new rollers came from a fellow Mooneyspacer, @flyingchump.

[joepilotmooney]

Thanks gentlemen!

[201Steve]

Yeah, it seems counterproductive to lube the rails. The rollers should have traction against the rail, like why you wouldn’t lube a railroad track. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. 

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, 201Steve said:

Yeah, it seems counterproductive to lube the rails. The rollers should have traction against the rail, like why you wouldn’t lube a railroad track. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. 

I agree that what you say makes sense. However, a little paraffin makes my seats slide smoother and my rollers are not much worn and rotate freely. I cannot explain it.

[Utah20Gflyer]

I second no lube and instead replace your seat rollers.  I did mine last annual and the seats slide as smoothly as I could imagine.  

[LANCECASPER]

I think one of the best things you can do for your rollers and rails is to keep them clean. I bought an Ovation back in 2014 and the owner's 10 year old son liked Chex Mix on trips. Needless to say there was Chex mix remnants crushed in the seat rails and in the trim wheel and chain and just about everywhere else you can imagine in the interior. After cleaning that out it's amazing how much better the seats and trim worked. It surprised me too how many clippings from zip ties were down in the trim wheel area. 

This is a small sampling: https://www.dropbox.com/s/p9iiewg24sb2w7p/chex mix in the trim wheel.JPG?dl=0

[PT20J]

This has been bugging me. @201Steve’s railroad analogy makes a lot of sense.

I removed both my seats and the rollers all spun freely as I expected. But, the noise they made indicated to me that they lacked lubricant. I oiled them with 3-in-One oil and cleaned the tracks. After reassembly, everything rolled smoothly.

So, I am now convinced that the best course is to keep the tracks clean and the rollers well lubricated.

Skip

[bmcconnaha]

I used a silicone spray lube, same as I used for the yoke shafts on the rollers.  Haven’t put them Back in yet to see if any improvement in the roll.  Rollers roll pretty freely in the seat, but was pretty stiff to roll in the rails 

[carusoam]

My M20C had seat moving challenges…

The wheels had shattered and went missing… so the axels we’re doing the rolling…. 
 

Wish MS started a decade earlier…

 

Also check that the wheels are on the track properly… in case you aren’t getting the seat on correctly…

There is a funky procedure for that… because the rail is so long, and the seat is so big…

Best regards,

-a-

[Shadrach]

On 9/20/2022 at 12:44 PM, DCarlton said:

Hi Skip.  A slight thread deviation.  I'm in annual now.  I used Tri-flow on my yokes and rod joints behind the panel last time because it has an acceptable smell inside the cabin.  The yokes seem a little sticky now; they chatter when you move them in and out to the extremes.  What lube would you recommend?  Thanks! 

The maintenance manual calls for Mil-L-7870. There are several brands the meet spec but I find the zip chem D-5261NS in aerosolized spray can to be easiest to apply

https://skygeek.com/zip-chem-002056-lubricant-silicone-12-oz-d5261ns-zc5261.html?utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=shoppingengine&utm_content=zip-chem-002056-lubricant-silicone-12-oz-d5261ns-zc5261&utm_campaign=froogle&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIoJnc59S0-gIVRxTUAR3dLgBqEAQYASABEgKXcfD_BwE

 

[DCarlton]

6 hours ago, Shadrach said:

The maintenance manual calls for Mil-L-7870. There are several brands the meet spec but I find the zip chem D-5261NS in aerosolized spray can to be easiest to apply

https://skygeek.com/zip-chem-002056-lubricant-silicone-12-oz-d5261ns-zc5261.html?utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=shoppingengine&utm_content=zip-chem-002056-lubricant-silicone-12-oz-d5261ns-zc5261&utm_campaign=froogle&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIoJnc59S0-gIVRxTUAR3dLgBqEAQYASABEgKXcfD_BwE

 

Thanks.  I've had the parts manual for years.  Finally got the maintenance manual for myself.  

[0TreeLemur]

On 9/20/2022 at 12:57 PM, Skates97 said:

Make sure the rollers are in good condition. Over the years they get worn down and then they start to gouge out the rails resulting in replacement of the rails. I recently replaced the rollers and while the old ones weren't in terrible shape and the new ones made a big difference. I have never used any lubricant on the rails, they roll very nicely.

The new rollers came from a fellow Mooneyspacer, @flyingchump.

Did the same.  Thanks @flyingchump!   Replacing the rollers with the new ones he made from Delrin make my seats roll like biscuits and butter.    All my rollers were stock except one. 

Annual before last the shop that did my annual wanted to replace the seat rails because they looked worn.    Ugh.   That would be a major pain y mucho dinero.   I said no.  After replacing the rollers, after that annual, the shop did not flag the seat rails as a problem this time.

 

[A64Pilot]

On 9/25/2022 at 4:48 PM, PT20J said:

This has been bugging me. @201Steve’s railroad analogy makes a lot of sense.

I removed both my seats and the rollers all spun freely as I expected. But, the noise they made indicated to me that they lacked lubricant. I oiled them with 3-in-One oil and cleaned the tracks. After reassembly, everything rolled smoothly.

So, I am now convinced that the best course is to keep the tracks clean and the rollers well lubricated.

Skip

Delrin should be self lubricating, but they could still get dirt in the axles over time.

My original factory rollers appeared to be phenolic, I think they may have had a metal tube insert but not sure.

I had some concerns that the delrin couldn’t handle my great weight bearing on that small axle bolt, but so far it’s been fine.

The good thing about Delrin is it’s soft enough that it shouldn’t wear the rails at all, but I think phenolic is abrasive and can wear rails.

[Utah20Gflyer]

It only takes a very small reduction in diameter for things to start rubbing.  Having replaced my rollers and seen the result I can promise you that if your seat isn't rolling smoothly replacing rollers will fix the issue.  The difference between my old rollers and the new ones was only a hundreth of and inch or two.  Basically a very shallow groove had been worn in the middle of the roller.  A set of 8 rollers cost me 80 bucks from Lasar and I swapped them myself in less than one hour start to finish.  

[carusoam]

Phenolic is a quirky material…

It is in the family of thermo-set polymers… it won’t melt….

The most common application for it…. Kitchen counter tops… ‘formica’

in the 60s and 70s sailboats used phenolic resin wheels in block and tackle type equipment…

It is often recognizable by its brownish color and filled with fibers for strength… or brown paper for low cost…

 

It is easy to machine, so it got used a lot when making wheels…

Its material strengths are awful… and longevity is pretty poor…

But other than that… they are easy to replace… especially after they shatter…

 

The use of Delrin became popular after cassette tapes needed precision wheels to avoid audio and video distortion…

PP thoughts only, not a plastics guru…

Best regards,

-a-

[Yetti]

I did not lube when replaced the rollers with derlin rod.   But the old wood worker trick for sliding draws is to use Johnson pasted wax,   Stuff in the yellow can.   Keeping the pin holes cleaned out is the most important thing.

[Ragsf15e]

On 9/20/2022 at 8:17 PM, Utah20Gflyer said:

I second no lube and instead replace your seat rollers.  I did mine last annual and the seats slide as smoothly as I could imagine.  

Sorry to resurrect this, but can someone tell me where to get seat rollers (lasar is out) or a thread on how to explicitly make them… for a non “hands” person.

[EricJ]

32 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Sorry to resurrect this, but can someone tell me where to get seat rollers (lasar is out) or a thread on how to explicitly make them… for a non “hands” person.

Is @flyingchump still making them?    His were pretty nice.

[Ragsf15e]

5 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Is @flyingchump still making them?    His were pretty nice.

Oh that would be awesome if someone was making them.  I bought some “seat recline selectors” from @Sabremech that are great. Seat rollers… youd think ours would be the same as cessna since the rails are apparently the same, but they look different to me.

[Utah20Gflyer]

33 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Sorry to resurrect this, but can someone tell me where to get seat rollers (lasar is out) or a thread on how to explicitly make them… for a non “hands” person.

Sorry, I purchased mine from Lasar. So you’ve already tried the source I used.   
 

They wouldn’t be particularly difficult to make provided the person had the dimensions, a suitable material and the proper tooling which would probably be a lathe.  But considering Lasar was charging 8 bucks a roller it would only make sense to go that route if you were desperate.  
 

I do have my old ones so I could determine the dimensions off of those with the exception possibly of the outside dimension which would be a little undersized based on the wear.