Never get overly confident with your skills! ( Mooney Bravo m20m)

[carusoam]

25 minutes ago, T. Peterson said:

I thought that was what you meant. Your further clarification makes perfect sense. I just tried to post a picture. Don’t know if it worked. It’s a picture of my wife and me. Perhaps a picture of the plane would be better?

 I very much enjoy your bullet point writing style. You are very good at it. 

A rough screen shot of my screen is still showing a green square with a T in it…

The screen shot kind of gives you what your details look like from an iPad…

Best regards,

-a-

 

[carusoam]

Keep in mind…

There are two pics that get used in different displays…

I think you may have selected the other pic location….   
I’m pretty new to this stuff myself…

Best regards,

-a-

[T. Peterson]

Hmmm….

I just got back from a little motorcycle ride with my bride. I will see if I can’t get this pic thing straightened out. I love technology and hate it at the same time!

[Will.iam]

34 minutes ago, T. Peterson said:

Hmmm….

I just got back from a little motorcycle ride with my bride. I will see if I can’t get this pic thing straightened out. I love technology and hate it at the same time!

Ah torrey, i just have a pic of my mooney. You could post a pic of that Bull Steer you have. Since you are a no BS kind of guy they will remember that way.  

[T. Peterson]

22 minutes ago, Will.iam said:

Ah torrey, i just have a pic of my mooney. You could post a pic of that Bull Steer you have. Since you are a no BS kind of guy they will remember that way.  

Hahaha! I tried to post a picture of the Mooney, but it says the file is too big. I am over this aggravating technology. I don’t have time to mess with it anymore tonight. I have a men’s breakfast at 0600 and then off on a 3 day. Btw, there is no such thing as a bull steer. LOL! I will fly you down here and educate you in the ways of the Bovine!

 

[thinwing]

this is a potential issue as on a low intrument approach ,say 3 to 500 overcast in gusty conditions...it is perfectly natural to come in hot...ive come in at 90 kts and need all of 5000 ft of the runway.A go arround from a bounced landing under low IFR is just asking for it.We  cant all  breakout ,on localizer and glide path and be at 1.3 vso...it just feels sloopy while in IMC.I know Im gonna get flamed for this advice,but I really think one should be able to salvage a bounced landing with the throttle...After the bounce ,level the aircraft if needed to get to landing attitude and apply power to cushion the landing.I realize this is setting you up for prop strike..but in low IMC...the risk of a suceesful goarround ,reentering IMC with out of trim condition is too great a risk.So what is worse a prop strike from botching this or a stall spin in IMC while trying to climbout ,retrim and fly the missed?

[larrynimmo]

1 hour ago, thinwing said:

this is a potential issue as on a low intrument approach ,say 3 to 500 overcast in gusty conditions...it is perfectly natural to come in hot...ive come in at 90 kts and need all of 5000 ft of the runway.A go arround from a bounced landing under low IFR is just asking for it.We  cant all  breakout ,on localizer and glide path and be at 1.3 vso...it just feels sloopy while in IMC.I know Im gonna get flamed for this advice,but I really think one should be able to salvage a bounced landing with the throttle...After the bounce ,level the aircraft if needed to get to landing attitude and apply power to cushion the landing.I realize this is setting you up for prop strike..but in low IMC...the risk of a suceesful goarround ,reentering IMC with out of trim condition is too great a risk.So what is worse a prop strike from botching this or a stall spin in IMC while trying to climbout ,retrim and fly the missed?

I am big on this philosophy…and I want to add, this doesn’t happen much with LHS…but as long as I have at least 2k feet of runway remaining, I will add power, level  the plane, and carefully attempt to land again….if it doesn’t feel right here, it’s time to go around

[carusoam]

4 hours ago, thinwing said:

I know Im gonna get flamed for this advice,but I really think one should be able to salvage a bounced landing with the throttle...

Some people can do this… and others can’t… sooooo… ‘should’ is the right word…

You get two tries to get it right…

If you are still battling for the third attempt… YOU will SEE strike three as it comes…

 

Each bounce is changing its dynamics compared to the one before…

As the speed dissipates, the control authority is getting away… as control changes rapidly as well…

The plane is pretty much at neutral buoyancy… so a light bounce easily throws the attitude… climbing quickly… getting slower…

 

From inside the cabin… you probably can’t tell what is really going on…  it becomes more challenging to plan the next move…

As the nose wheel bounces, then the mains follow suit…  the bucking bronco ride has officially begun…

The oscillations get progressively worse… really noticeably…

 

What we can’t tell… is how adept a pilot is…

if you are good at scanning instruments… and you always know your air speed on final approach… you have a lot to work with…

if the last time you saw your airspeed was when you turned final…. Bounce and go is a great solution… 

 

All pilots are good at multitasking… until in the traffic pattern environment… this is where some of us start running out of multitasking skill… where we go from tracking position in 3D and time, we then add rate of descent, and rate of turn, and rate of bank….

Subtle hints of running out of multitasking skill… cognitive saturation… skipping position reports… deciding one gumps is enough… hearing people reporting their position and ignoring them because you are busy….

These are ordinary people problems…

PP thoughts only… not a cognitive therapist… or CFI…

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

 

[Yetti]

Ha.   I bounced a landing on Friday also.   It was a pretty bumpy day up there with like 30knt winds.   Approach was good.  Just a bit of a hop.  Since I had extra energy, just set back up and let settle properly.   all good.  Hold the nose up.

[T. Peterson]

4 hours ago, thinwing said:

this is a potential issue as on a low intrument approach ,say 3 to 500 overcast in gusty conditions...it is perfectly natural to come in hot...ive come in at 90 kts and need all of 5000 ft of the runway.A go arround from a bounced landing under low IFR is just asking for it.We  cant all  breakout ,on localizer and glide path and be at 1.3 vso...it just feels sloopy while in IMC.I know Im gonna get flamed for this advice,but I really think one should be able to salvage a bounced landing with the throttle...After the bounce ,level the aircraft if needed to get to landing attitude and apply power to cushion the landing.I realize this is setting you up for prop strike..but in low IMC...the risk of a suceesful goarround ,reentering IMC with out of trim condition is too great a risk.So what is worse a prop strike from botching this or a stall spin in IMC while trying to climbout ,retrim and fly the missed?

I certainly agree with you to a point! I need to figure out how to properly recover from a bounce, but once the boing boing starts I don’t think you should settle for a prop strike to avoid a go around. Doing a proper miss is part of our required IFR skills and should not put us in extremis. Of course avoiding the boing boing porpoise should be a part of our landing skills, but if I don’t fix it soon my friends are going to start calling me “Flipper”!! (Flipper was a TV show about a boy and his Dolphin back in the day. )

[donkaye]

I recommend my Landing Video where I do a number of demonstrations of bounced landings and recoveries. 

https://donkaye.com/landing-video

I also have a lot of other good articles on the site.

[jaylw314]

On 4/24/2022 at 2:52 PM, T. Peterson said:

Hi -a-,

 I am not sure of what you are getting at or if I am the intended recipient. What is the avatar area? Is it that tiny little square in the top left where some put an indecipherable picture? I don’t know how that would make me any more memorable than signing my name, but if that is what you are getting at I will do so provided I can figure out how!

May I say I see a bit of irony if you think I need to make myself better known when you withhold both your name and gender! I don’t say that with any criticism intended at all! I am sure you have good reasons, it just strikes me as a bit odd.

Of course I may have completely misunderstood your original statement and in that case please forgive me!

 I very much appreciate and enjoy your many posts.

best regards,

-Torrey-

LOL, @carusoam doesn't need a profile because EVERYBODY knows he's "Anthony".  If you made 10 posts every day for 10 years, he'd STILL have more posts!

FWIW, I come over the numbers around 80 KIAS when I'm doing an IFR approaches to ILS/LPV minimums (which I seem to have had to do a HELL of a lot this past year), since I fly the approaches at 100 KIAS.  I can't think of any runway with an LPV or ILS that isn't long enough that it isn't a problem.  So while 80 KIAS is generally not fantastic, it's still doable with enough runway, and probably not the source of the hard landing.

Edited April 26, 2022 by jaylw314

[T. Peterson]

1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

LOL, @carusoam doesn't need a profile because EVERYBODY knows he's "Anthony".  If you made 10 posts every day for 10 years, he'd STILL have more posts!

FWIW, I come over the numbers around 80 KIAS when I'm doing an IFR approaches to ILS/LPV minimums (which I seem to have had to do a HELL of a lot this past year), since I fly the approaches at 100 KIAS.  I can't think of any runway with an LPV or ILS that isn't long enough that it isn't a problem.  So while 80 KIAS is generally not fantastic, it's still doable with enough runway, and probably not the source of the hard landing.

Everybody but me I guess!! Thank you for edumicating me! Now I too am in the know! I certainly realized he posted vociferously. I very much enjoy his writing style and pleasant demeanor.

 I also thank you for sharing your technique on IFR approaches.

Torrey

[Steve Yucht]

Don't beat yourself up. I have 400 hours in my Ovation and feel the many bounces I have had only better prepared me for the occasional hop I have now. You obviously know how to land the plane and were just trying to share your experience.  Thank you, and never be ashamed of a successful go around.

[29-0363]

I've not shared this before, but I'll add my experience from 2006 in my M20R.

Maybe at the time I was over confident, a little tired after 3:30 airborne, a little apprehensive landing at dusk on a short runway with a 15kt crosswind, (tall dense trees on the upwind side),   but the holes in the cheese lined up perfectly, and I managed to totally embarrass myself. 

At about 60' off the deck I was supremely confident I'd nailed it - speed OK, profile OK, crabbing a little because of the crosswind anticipating it would reduce at or below the tree line.  I was expecting an absolute greaser.

Then it all went pear shaped about 15-20' off the deck. The stall warning went off and a half second later an almighty crunching sound, and I was suddenly just a passenger in a wounded bird making sparks sliding along the runway.

What did I do wrong? How could such a normal approach go so wrong?

I agonised for days trying to figure out where I'd screwed up. To this day the only explanation I could come up with, is the crosswind over the trees created a rotor, and I flew through its downdraft at exactly the wrong time.

 

 

 

 

 

[Yetti]

Salvaging a bounced landing is one of those pilot tricks you need to pull out of the bag when needed.   Some of it is pilot attitude.   As in I got this.    I always say the take off and inflight is easy, landing is hard.     If you bounced it with too much energy vs. wind got you (see above)  The first thing to know is you have too much energy which means the plane will still fly.    First off you need the nose up,  Second you may need a blip of throttle to pull the plane straight and up.  I don't normally do throttle.   Just get the plane back in a flare and let it settle. It's alot all at once, but giving up is not an option.   You are still PIC.   If it is wind related as in the wind went away and you smashed the deck then by all means throttle up, fly level in ground effect and do a go around.   I think that is one of the things about go arounds.   People think they should be going up.   As with take offs in the mooney  you want the wing flying before you start going up.   So gathering speed in straight and level gets the wing flying and gives you time to get the cockpit and your head realigned.

[Shadrach]

I honestly don’t understand the challenge with saving a bounced landing. Flaring for the second touchdown should be instinctive. Adding a touch of energy if needed should as well. I find that many pilots “feel” they need more energy than they do. I was once one of them. After 20yrs and many Mooney hours, My bounces are typically caused by wind gusts. I still pooch touchdowns but these days they almost always favor a firmer than desired arrival rather than a bounce.

[T. Peterson]

2 hours ago, Yetti said:

Salvaging a bounced landing is one of those pilot tricks you need to pull out of the bag when needed.   Some of it is pilot attitude.   As in I got this.    I always say the take off and inflight is easy, landing is hard.     If you bounced it with too much energy vs. wind got you (see above)  The first thing to know is you have too much energy which means the plane will still fly.    First off you need the nose up,  Second you may need a blip of throttle to pull the plane straight and up.  I don't normally do throttle.   Just get the plane back in a flare and let it settle. It's alot all at once, but giving up is not an option.   You are still PIC.   If it is wind related as in the wind went away and you smashed the deck then by all means throttle up, fly level in ground effect and do a go around.   I think that is one of the things about go arounds.   People think they should be going up.   As with take offs in the mooney  you want the wing flying before you start going up.   So gathering speed in straight and level gets the wing flying and gives you time to get the cockpit and your head realigned.

Well said, but you may want to consider that some of us spend a lot more time flying other airplanes than our Mooney. A swept wing behaves much differently than a straight wing. Furthermore, a go around is not giving up but rather demonstrates good PIC judgment when things get uncomfortable. Especially when one is brand new to a particular type and cautiously learning the envelope.

Torrey

[geoffb]

I must be the only guy on the board who bounces a landing more than once a decade.  If I posted every time I'd be catching up with Anthony's post count.

[Yetti]

On 4/27/2022 at 1:24 PM, T. Peterson said:

Well said, but you may want to consider that some of us spend a lot more time flying other airplanes than our Mooney. A swept wing behaves much differently than a straight wing. Furthermore, a go around is not giving up but rather demonstrates good PIC judgment when things get uncomfortable. Especially when one is brand new to a particular type and cautiously learning the envelope.

Torrey

I say it on the sliding scale of deciding to go around and collect your thoughts is no worse than or better than knowing were you were with energy and how much or little the plane has left in it.  I also see landing is energy management.   I grew up learning to sail small boats without engines.   To land at the pier is the same.  Into the wind too much energy and you smack the pier.   Too little energy and the bowman gets wet.

On my first solo about mid downwind I thought "oh I really do have to land this"   And then the workload took over.   everynow and then on a windy day gusty day a little voice creeps in that says "Yikes"   Then I have to say "I got this"

It is a hobby that requires a high degree of perfection each time.

[Fly Boomer]

6 hours ago, geoffb said:

I must be the only guy on the board who bounces a landing more than once a decade.

Somebody around here with a lot of Mooney time said "if you think that, with enough Mooney experience, all your landings will be greasers, you're going to be disappointed."

[pkofman]

After reading all of these replies to my original post, it seems im not alone on having bounced a Mooney ! However I will  add this..."not all bounces are created equal"

Ive had innumerable tiny  "baubles " not " bounces which instinctively require a tiny touch of power, attitude correction, and then a nice easy settling on to the runway

A "bauble": was not how this all started for me last week..My screw-up did not leave me many options other than a good go around. IMHO !  

Some very interesting reading in this thread from some very well healed mooney pilots.  Appreciate all the feedback

 

Pete

[carusoam]

It’s fun being human… isn’t it?

 

-a-

[Fly Boomer]

9 minutes ago, pkofman said:

"not all bounces are created equal"

My father and his cronies used to say to my mother flying a Luscombe "Unless you go as high as the tower, it's not really a bounce".

[BobbyH]

On 4/28/2022 at 6:40 PM, Fly Boomer said:

Somebody around here with a lot of Mooney time said "if you think that, with enough Mooney experience, all your landings will be greasers, you're going to be disappointed."

I'm happy to get some greasers now and then.  Just too many factors, number of passengers, current weight, CG, winds and current performance of plane, runway width, not to mention airspeed, etc..  I'm also impressed with those few pilots with great skill who are able to grease it in most of the time.  So I'm trying to keep my bounces shallow.