Mooney accident Central Jersey, April 4, 2022…

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Bravoman said:

As I recall from my Bravo days, which I reminisce upon fondly, I  didn’t want to be much over 75 knots over the fence unless in gusty conditions. I always shot for between 70 and 75 depending on weight, runway length, etc. It was the sweetest landing plane I ever flew.

That works well in my C, too, in mph. Long bodies will be in KIAS.

Every knot too fast is an additional 100' of float, according to Bob Kromer [former Mooney Test Pilot, VP of Engineering then CEO]. So 10 knots is 1000', 20 knots too fast would be 2000' . . . . And that's not "airspeed minus book speed at gross," it's "actual airspeed right now minus 1.3 * actual stall speed at the current weight".

[Shadrach]

42 minutes ago, Hank said:

That works well in my C, too, in mph. Long bodies will be in KIAS.

Every knot too fast is an additional 100' of float, according to Bob Kromer [former Mooney Test Pilot, VP of Engineering then CEO]. So 10 knots is 1000', 20 knots too fast would be 2000' . . . . And that's not "airspeed minus book speed at gross," it's "actual airspeed right now minus 1.3 * actual stall speed at the current weight".

Good rule of thumb but I’d bet it’s actually conservative in terms of the distance of the float. It’s my experience that a Mooney in ground effect takes its time decelerating and 80kts is 135fps. 

[rbp]

I read a number of people who make "trim all the way back" landings. They should read this: https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/maneuvers/how-you-can-prevent-an-elevator-trim-stall-on-final-flight/

[ilovecornfields]

4 hours ago, Cruiser said:

as with many other models, the Ovation gets mushy going that slow, Not as responsive to the controls and gives the pilot and uncomfortable feeling. 
Not an excuse, only an observation. 

 

Ovation flies just fine at 75 kts with vortex generators. 

[hais]

On 4/6/2022 at 12:38 PM, 201er said:

I love how intact the cabin is. Other than a bend to the center tube, looks unchanged. Even the doors open.

This puzzles me: isn't bending better for energy absorption?

[hais]

17 hours ago, cliffy said:

On a go around its only the first 100 feet or so that (for the most part) actually matter. Get above the trees and wires.

Go arounds are not and emergency maneuver. They're just a takeoff from a few feet above ground  (unless you put yourself into a dangerous position in the first place-(too low too close to the trees) 

The difference in height or time/distance to 100 feet with the wheels out or in is small and there are not many people who can fly that precisely where it would make a difference AND if there was THEY wouldn't have put themselves in that position in the first place and IF that much close performance was needed to use a particular airport maybe a reassessment of ones skill set is needed before that operation.

It works whether its a Boeing or a Mooney  Careful application of full power, full RPM and rich mixture (unless high altitude) smoothly fly the airplane to accelerate to climb speed and by then you will be at or near 100 agl so calmly retract flaps to T/O position, retract the gear and then retract the flaps on speed.   Calmly and with smooth application of controls

Its NOT an emergency maneuver, its just a takeoff when you are already at flying speed. 

Don't make it more than what it is. 

And NO I disagree that the open wheel wells will make that much difference at 80-90 kts speed up to 100 AGL.

The gear IMO just doesn't have that much drag at low airspeed to make that much difference to 100 AGL

How do you set the mixture when arriving at high density altitude airport in preparation for a possible go around? Asking because common advice for take off is to set while at full throttle. Doesn't work well while on final/in the pattern. 

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, rbp said:

I read a number of people who make "trim all the way back" landings. They should read this: https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/maneuvers/how-you-can-prevent-an-elevator-trim-stall-on-final-flight/

Huh? They're still advocating for trimming to hold Vref hands off on final as should be done.

"But just because the nose will pitch up during a go-around, doesn't mean you shouldn't use trim on final approach.

It just means you need to be ready to apply forward control pressure and begin rolling trim forward on go-arounds. Having a little bit of nose-up trim on final approach is a great way to make sure you're able to flare smoothly for landing.

The key is understanding how much trim is too much. Avoid trimming to the point where you're forced to place forward-pressure on the yoke to keep the nose down on short final or in the flare. If you're trimmed correctly on final, you should be able to let go of the stick/yoke, and your plane won't pitch down or up"

[rbp]

Yes, trim for hands off. Many people on this forum advocate trimming back to the stop

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kortopates]

37 minutes ago, rbp said:

Yes, trim for hands off. Many people on this forum advocate trimming back to the stop

 

 

 

 

 

 

I really don't think that's a correct characterization. Just as in the first quote, that is not someone saying you should trim full nose up. What I believe they're reading is that when trimmed for hands off at Vref the trim will be pretty far nose up and near full up. The amount of nose up for Vref gets higher with the longer fuselage and also varies between individual aircraft because the indicator has often shifted some over the years with maintenance. But I don't think you'll find folks advocating to just run the electric trim to the stops up for landing. People have done it unintentionally and reported here how the trim became stuck and even resulted in the demise of a K model a couple years ago - we have a Mooney Service instruction to correct that issue (jammed trim after running electric trim to the stops).

But finding you have a handful of force to deal with on a go around doesn't necessarily mean the pilot is trimming to the stops but that the pilot needs to better practice performing the go around maneuver - properly discussed just above. 

Edited April 7, 2022 by kortopates

[kortopates]

57 minutes ago, hais said:

This puzzles me: isn't bending better for energy absorption?

De-acceleration over distance/time to avoid in excess of 7 G's while strapped in so as to not hit anything in the cockpit (e.g head against dash or panel) provides the best survivability. The cockpits job is to maintain structural integrity so that steering and panel don't move forward into our space nor the ceiling crush on top of us if inverted - like a Piper does.

A car is much better able to crush in an accordion like way to absorb some G's would could be life saving, but cars are able to maintain much better directional stability in the crash sequence. Aircraft though much more likely to go off in a sideways direction and aircraft G-force survivability is only about half going sideways versus straight ahead, 

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, hais said:

How do you set the mixture when arriving at high density altitude airport in preparation for a possible go around? Asking because common advice for take off is to set while at full throttle. Doesn't work well while on final/in the pattern. 

Definitely not by going full rich at a high DA airport, for exactly the concern you mention. Even us turbo guys will refrain from going full rich to avoid an overly rich condition rolling out on the runway; yet will need to go full rich when going full power. Whereas the NA aircraft will need to lean on a high DA go around, preferably by EGT if they have the instrumentation and know how to use it.  

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, rbp said:

I read a number of people who make "trim all the way back" landings. They should read this: https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/maneuvers/how-you-can-prevent-an-elevator-trim-stall-on-final-flight/

I have run out of aft trim when under 2100lbs. It’s a function of weight, Cg and approach speed not a procedure in which to be advocated.  Those who’ve not flown a Mooney that weighs less than 2000lbs with pilot and 20gals of fuel on a 65MIAS short final are bound to misunderstand what is being said. Trimming hands off means hitting the stop.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Shadrach

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, ilovecornfields said:

Ovation flies just fine at 75 kts with vortex generators. 

You feel that your VGs enhance aileron and elevator feel?

[aviatoreb]

9 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

You feel that your VGs enhance aileron and elevator feel?

I have VGs.  I feel like it does enhance aileron and elevator feel, and also it does lower stall speed.

[Shadrach]

1 minute ago, aviatoreb said:

I have VGs.  I feel like it does enhance aileron and elevator feel, and also it does lower stall speed.

No question they lower stall speed. They may also improve control response. I think Tom’s point is valid regardless. Almost any M20 has a significant airspeed operating range, especially compared to training aircraft.  It’s entirely feasible that I am descending towards my destination at 170KIAS and then bumping down short final at at 56KIAS shortly thereafter. That makes for a large change in control authority. It seems plausible that some folks inadvertently keep it fast because it feels “better”…that is until it’s time to flare.

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

No question they lower stall speed. They may also improve control response. I think Tom’s point is valid regardless. Almost any M20 has a significant airspeed operating range, especially compared to training aircraft.  It’s entirely feasible that I am descending towards my destination at 170KIAS and then bumping down short final at at 56KIAS shortly thereafter. That makes for a large change in control authority. It seems plausible that some folks inadvertently keep it fast because it feels “better”…that is until it’s time to flare.

Yah - not arguing anything - just reporting that yes, improved control authority and crisp feeling and lowered stall.  The rest of it - I agree.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

I have run out of aft trim when under 2100lbs. It’s a function of weight, Cg and approach speed not a procedure in which to be advocated.  Those who’ve not flown a Mooney that weighs less than 2000lbs with pilot and 20gals of fuel on a 65MIAS short final are bound to misunderstand what is being said.

I fly my C like that often, trimming for hands-off landings

 And my trim is often very close to the Takeoff setting.

[Shadrach]

10 minutes ago, Hank said:

I fly my C like that often, trimming for hands-off landings

 And my trim is often very close to the Takeoff setting.

I hit the aft stop with just me and a few hours fuel.

[cliffy]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

I hit the aft stop with just me and a few hours fuel.

Have you  ever verified that your stabilizer trim angles are correct and your elevator bungee angle is correct?

 where does your CG sit?

[Shadrach]

10 minutes ago, cliffy said:

Have you  ever verified that your stabilizer trim angles are correct and your elevator bungee angle is correct?

 where does your CG sit?

I have not, but if it’s incorrect, it left the factory that way.  Plane has been in the family since it was purchased from Henry Webber Aircraft in 68. I have every log and every W&B revision. I will look at the the W&B when I’m at the hangar and report back. That being said,  I know that I am not the only one that needs full aft trim under certain loading conditions and speeds.

[carusoam]

6 hours ago, rbp said:

I read a number of people who make "trim all the way back" landings. They should read this: https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/maneuvers/how-you-can-prevent-an-elevator-trim-stall-on-final-flight/

This was y2k training by non Mooney CFIs…(my experience)

I bet you would be hard pressed to find somebody recommending that around here currently…

 

Kind of a challenge…. See if we can find where that ill-informed idea comes from… 

I was told you can never get enough up trim in a Mooney…

Followed by…

It doesn’t make sense after flying the Mooney for a while… 

What I found out about the instructor… he was trained for basic airmanship of all airplanes…  the ASI has all of the nice ranges printed right on it…  if you can follow the ranges, you won’t fall out of the sky…

Its crummy advice… because when not trimmed properly, or power or mixture isn’t trimmed properly… you can fall out of the nice ranges faster than you can recognize what is happening…

PP thoughts only, not a CFI…

Best regards,

-a-

[cliffy]

My only thought was that not all F models have that problem.  I would think that if the factory set it that way then all Fs would exhibit the same anomaly or like you mentioned - it left the factory that way and it might be wrong. 

If someone ever took the elevators off or the bungees out that could cause the bungee deflection to be wrong.

Has it ever been repainted?

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, cliffy said:

My only thought was that not all F models have that problem.  I would think that if the factory set it that way then all Fs would exhibit the same anomaly or like you mentioned - it left the factory that way and it might be wrong. 

If someone ever took the elevators off or the bungees out that could cause the bungee deflection to be wrong.

Has it ever been repainted?

Nope. Paint is original. It only happens at very light weights with no baggage.

[Ragsf15e]

5 hours ago, Hank said:

I fly my C like that often, trimming for hands-off landings

 And my trim is often very close to the Takeoff setting.

My F is similar. Very near TO setting.

[jetdriven]

On 4/7/2022 at 7:30 AM, cliffy said:

We have a Cirrus here that does training and I watch all the time as they do T&Gs, Its ALWAYS slam the throttle forward and I listen as the engine/prop combo cycle thru about 3 cycles of trying to come to a stable RPM. Waaa-waaa-waaa as the prop tries to catch and stabilize the power delivery. 

Slamming the power fwd only causes control problems and engine/prop wear and tear. Its not necessary. 

there are a bunch of cirrus airplanes based at my field, and every time they pull up to the runway they literally firewall the throttle as hard as they can, and the prop surges two or three times before the governor can actually stop it from surfing and  over speeding. I guess nobody at that Puppy Mill school is teaching smoothness, you know you don’t have to jam everything like it’s a pinball machine.