Should Tesla buy Mooney?

[A64Pilot]

Efficiency is really the best way to deal with what has to be shrinking oil reserves, whether electric or not, it’s ALL power, merely changing the type isn’t the magic formula it’s all being hyped as, because I bet the source of pretty much all power is hydrocarbons.

What bothers me is US Automakers in their traditional way are approaching EV’s the same way they have always done ICE vehicles, that is don’t be concerned with efficiency , just buld it with a bigger tank.

Fords Mach-e is 337 WH per mile, F-150 500 WH per mile, Hummer 571 WH per mile

I went back and looked at our driving electrical consumption and it really is right at  at 200WH per mile. our total is higher because I’ll sit in the car with the AC on watching Netflix while she shops or if we both go in, I still leave the HVAC on, but the car is rated  at 260 miles for a 50 KWH usable battery. That’s 192 WH per mile Government rated, not the manufacturer, so 200 is realistic.

This is a decent article ref that

https://thehiu.com/electric-cars-have-fuel-economy-problems/

Back in the 1970’s an automobile was a good one of you got 100,000 miles out of it, most didn’t. Now a car easily goes 250,000 if reasonably cared for and will last for decades. talking ICE cars here as EV’s aren’t old enough yet to know for sure.

Heat  pumps regularly last at least 20 years as do refrigerators, without any service, Google it yourself I couldn’t find a US government or other unbiased reference, but I’ve never worn one out, replaced the last fridge when the outside began to rust when it was over 20 years old, the one in my hanger is the same way, a neighbor replaced it because it was so old the handles etc color faded, but it works fine, it’s over 20 years old.

The battery pack is the great unknown in an EV’s but the power train should last nearly indefinitely, by that I mean it’s likely the rest of the car will be shot first, which is why I’ve replaced every car we have ever had, when the car itself just gets so old it rattles and squeaks, interior starts to look ratty etc, but motor and powertrain are fine, usually when it’s over  15 years old often at least 20. Our Prius pack was still fine at 280,000 miles. but surely had to be nearing its end of life because a Hybrid cycles it’s pack much more often than an EV, an EV cycles once per charge, a Hybrid in city driving could every 5 miles or so, if AC is on and there are a lot of stops (red lights).

But battery packs are an unknown, largely I believe because almost no one knows how to best care for them, by that I mean ideally only use middle third of capacity by charging every night, don’t rapid charge often and avoid extremes of temps both hot and cold. How much has the manufacturer de-rated the packs? Those that are heavily de-rated will last much longer of course.

I “Supercharged” for my first time today as I was curious. didn’t give the car proper time to “precondition” the battery, but it took exactly 10 min to go from 30% to 60%, and the cost to do so was 300% more than it cost to charge at home, so yes Tesla has to be making a good profit off of those things to get 300% more than residential power costs.

I did it to make sure it would work and we knew how, you don’t need to mess with credit cards or anything, just plug in and I’m sure the charger knows the serial number of the car or whatever and charges the card on file.

I had read it takes 30 min from 0% to 80% charged, above 80% like all batteries the charge slows the closer to full it gets, so 80% is a good stopping point.

 

Edited March 12, 2022 by A64Pilot

[N201MKTurbo]

Oil will nor run out overnight. When demand exceeds production, which is happening right now by an artificial reduction in production caused by sanctions and government policy, the price will rise until demand reduces. (Been to the airport in the last week?)

Even when demand exceeds  Production, there is still the largest production in history. As reserves taper off, the production will also taper off. Even when the price of petroleum exceeds the price individuals are willing to pay, there will still be plenty of reserves available if you want to pay the price. I believe petroleum fuels Will be available for hundreds of years in the future, but the price will exclude the use in personal transportation.

As far as the magic super battery is concerned, don’t hold your breath. There is no magic battery, just as there is no sustainable energy source that will get the world where we are now with petroleum fuels. When petroleum fuels Are too expensive for personal transportation, the world will need to return to the horse and buggy and bicycle paradigm. There is no magic ferry dust and rainbow shine that will give us what we have today in a post petroleum world. Be glad you were alive to enjoy it.

[Schllc]

6 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

Ray, I personally think their future is shorter than a lot of us old racers would even like. From a car manufacture perspective, every R&D dollar from the "big" 3 or the rest of the entrants for that matter is being spent on developing an EV strategy that might be able to be competitive with the company our current administration cannot seem to name. There is a reason for this, as they know which direction Mr. Market is pushing them. Design obsolescence has been around for a while, and why we dont see the roads filled with 1993 caddies and such, but I sure get your point about the HVAC replacement. The green way would be NO AC. (or do I mean AOC?)  Replacing a boiler made in 1920 isnt exactly energy efficient from well thru installed life, but it is being done regularly.

saving a few bucks on per mile cost is good, denying the congress more $ to steal from the highway fund even better, but stomping a lambo in a 1/4 mile in your SUV, priceless

https://robbreport.com/motors/cars/tesla-model-x-plaid-lamborghini-huracan-evo-drag-race-1234667817/

 

Mike

LEED AP 

I see where it’s going, I understand the advantages. I just don’t believe it’s any “greener”, or even better for the environment in aggregate.  
Like other posters have said, our grid cannot handle the transition, and look at the turnover of cars presently.  What would happen with that number of batteries?

Its not a fad, but it feels more like virtue signaling than meaningful. 
get one because it’s fun, because you get a tax break, because you like the tech, etc.  

But don’t claim it’s better for the environment, until they harness unicorn farts and rainbow power, the jury is still out on that one…

[Kmac]

20 minutes ago, Schllc said:

I see where it’s going, I understand the advantages. I just don’t believe it’s any “greener”, or even better for the environment in aggregate.  

I can agree that an electric aircraft probably isn't better for the environment considering all factors but an airport that is considering closing down, especially because of lead contamination or even noise might not...

An airport closing could be the difference between deciding whether to buy an airplane or not.

Perhaps, with the advent of electric aircraft, new airports could even open.  

Edited March 13, 2022 by Kmac
Addition

[carusoam]

I always selected my cars based on performance, and affordability…

and bought my first Mooney based on getting sooo many miles out of my first firebird…. 
 

 

What I am seeing here…

1) The electric cars meet or beat performance expectations of ICE…

2) The electric cars meet or beat the total distance of ICE…

3) The electric cars meet or beat the age of ICE…

 

The next Corvette engine is a really impressive piece of ICE art!

An electric Corvette would be really interesting…

 

+1 for it being tough living in an apartment… the sun is extra tough on anything parked outside…

+1 living in a house, with a garage, with solar panels seems ideal…

 

Soooo many good choices…. More to come…

PP summary only…

-a-

 

[mike_elliott]

11 hours ago, Schllc said:

But don’t claim it’s better for the environment, until they harness unicorn farts and rainbow power, the jury is still out on that one…

cant find where I did claim that. What I claimed is I can kick the snot out of a lambo with my suv in a 1/4 mile, and unfortunately, mine is old enough I cant make it make unicorn fart noises like the new ones can

[Schllc]

37 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

cant find where I did claim that. What I claimed is I can kick the snot out of a lambo with my suv in a 1/4 mile, and unfortunately, mine is old enough I cant make it make unicorn fart noises like the new ones can

Didn’t mean to insinuate that “you” made the claim. 
mostly just the general impetus behind the movement is based to the fallacy of “green”.

most of these initiatives towards efficiency are well intentioned but poorly executed. 
bureaucrats set arbitrary mandates, the market responds to meet the mandate, but no one evaluates the efficacy of the result.   
appliances were just the easiest one to use as an example. 
our washing machines all use 5 gallons less water, cost double, and last 1/5th as long and doesn’t  wash the clothes as well!   Then they end up in a landfill, the same place all the plastic cars and toxic batteries will go.

is that really better than a car with a distributor and points, that anyone can service that last for 40 years, simply because the six new ones that replaced it get 8mpg better?

 

 

[mike_elliott]

JD Straubel formed a company to recycle the batteries which F, GM, TSLA, Panasonic, LG and a host others have made a deal with to obtain the recycled materials for their batteries.  Its far cheaper and cleaner than mining.

JD is one of those guys who can get things done instead of pounding his chest about how great he is. And ya, when Redwood materials goes public, im in.

https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/services

 

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

On 3/7/2022 at 1:07 PM, 1980Mooney said:

Exactly.  If Musk was even remotely interested (in GA aircraft) he would acquire Pipistrel - it already does all those things, it is electric, profitable and certified.

Certainly he did not consider buying the assets of American Motors or the Hudson Motor Car Company as the seed for Tesla.  Why buy a 60 year old  aircraft design ill-suited for an electric motor?   

[Kmac]

1 hour ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Certainly he did not consider buying the assets of American Motors or the Hudson Motor Car Company as the seed for Tesla.  Why buy a 60 year old  aircraft design ill-suited for an electric motor?   

He built the first Roadsters on ICE Lotus Elise chassies.

A new design would only be marginally better and take forever to bring to market at outrageous $$$.

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Certainly he did not consider buying the assets of American Motors or the Hudson Motor Car Company as the seed for Tesla.  Why buy a 60 year old  aircraft design ill-suited for an electric motor?   

What KMAC said

and as an example, 

https://www.aviationtoday.com/2019/06/06/ampaire-hybrid-electric-cessna-flight/

these guys have been developing a hybrid electric system to be used on the Cessna 337 airframe.  Ok, its a much smaller company than Tesla, but I can see the utility of just developing a power system and then leaving the rest of the airplane concept to a proven design.

[hais]

This idea is late, the TBM exists already .... oh wait ... the T is for Tesla?

[A64Pilot]

First modern ICE vehicles last far longer than “back in the day” they get much better fuel milage, and there have never, ever been faster or safer cars than todays, The idea of 1960’s car outlasting todays is pure fantasy to say nothing about emissions, efficiency, power, safety etc. Even exhaust systems back in the day rusted out every couple of years, today the only exhaust work done is for kids wanting louder exhausts.

In 1993 I bought a new Z28 to take to Germany to run on the Autobahn, the 1993 Z28 was the quickest as in quarter mile and fastest as in top speed of any Camaro produced up to that date and our last Z28 was a 2002 SS with an LS6 that would eat the 93’s LT1 for lunch, and I’m certain later models got even faster, heck spark plugs last longer in todays cars than engines did in the 60’s and 70’s.

As a motörhead what made me think that the ICE days were over was when I found out that a Tesla was the quickest mass produced vehicle ever made, forever motorcycles have been the quarter mile kings, but when I found out that the Tesla four door sedan easily bested any production motorcycle in the quarter mile I knew it was over for ICE, for production road vehicles anyway. Now I’m wanting an electric sport bike, it will happen.

When I was a kid you had a bad ass car if it would run 14’s in the quarter. Remember the bad ass 1976 455 high output four speed Trans Am? Would you believe a 16 sec quarter mile time, the fast cars back then were really dogs compared to todays cars.

The Tesla Plaid turns the quarter in 9.3 sec. The fastest Challenger Hellcat Redeye 11.6  2.3 sec slower, and it’s a beast let me tell you.

The quickest production motorcycle ever made the Kawasaki ZX-14R takes 9.8 sec, which is blistering fast, but not as fast as the Tesla four door sedan

https://youtu.be/nd-2AS2WjCY

 

Edited March 13, 2022 by A64Pilot

[Kmac]

If you purchased the Mooney explained on the fisrt page of this thread with the RRP260D motor you could have a full 350hp at 25k ft...  That should move along pretty good...

 

[Schllc]

The purchase of Mooney has little to do with the certified aircraft.  It’s the manufacturing certificate that has the real value. 
my understanding is that to obtain this from scratch would be a monumental feat, both in time as well as cost. 
I am not sure comparing a car company to an aircraft company is a valid analogy. 
 

I am about as fanatical a mooniac as one could be, but even I realize the airplane in its current form, just isn’t really marketable. 
But the certificate to manufacture isn’t at all like making an automobile.

I’d be willing to bet if Musk had to wait two years and spend Millions just to get permission to build, he would have bought one of those companies in a heartbeat. 
 

[Kmac]

Most here chose Mooney, some fairly recently, even over a much newer SR20. 

Why is that?  

More efficient?  Lycoming?  Metal over composite?  Retract?  Looks?

A P51 Mustang is an old design but if you could buy one for the same price then fly it for ¼ the cost of a Super Tucano; I would...

[chriscalandro]

38 minutes ago, Kmac said:

Most here chose Mooney, some fairly recently, even over a much newer SR20. 

Why is that?  

More efficient?  Lycoming?  Metal over composite?  Retract?  Looks?

A P51 Mustang is an old design but if you could buy one for the same price then fly it for ¼ the cost of a Super Tucano; I would...

Price / performance. 
 

let’s get real here. Most Mooneys flying today relatively, aren’t worth that much. The ones that were expensive, didn’t sell. 
 

I own my C because I found it to be the best bang for the buck. 

[A64Pilot]

I had 100ish cash to spend as many do, and I’ve always wanted a Mooney well since forever, for 100ish cash I found a good J model which is the one I wanted. 

As an A&P I have a deep dislike for composite, I have lots of experience with it from the Military, at first glance it would seem easy to repair, but it’s not. If we are talking primary structure it’s actually very difficult.

The picture of the Mooney wing that someone taxied into the other day will be repaired, lot of damage but repair is actually pretty straight forward, I’ve never done any Cirrus repair but doubt damage like that would be repairable.

You don’t bend composite, it’s hell for strong then suddenly it’s in pieces and I mistrust that. Then even as it’s been around a pretty long time we really don’t know what 40 yr old composite wings that have spent most of their lives outside  look like. Inspection procedures for composite is not nearly as mature as metal yet. 

More simply put I just don’t trust plastic airplanes, and I don’t like the whole parachute thing, especially it’s limited life.

[Kmac]

On 3/13/2022 at 4:03 PM, aviatoreb said:

What KMAC said

and as an example, 

https://www.aviationtoday.com/2019/06/06/ampaire-hybrid-electric-cessna-flight/

these guys have been developing a hybrid electric system to be used on the Cessna 337 airframe.  Ok, its a much smaller company than Tesla, but I can see the utility of just developing a power system and then leaving the rest of the airplane concept to a proven design.

And I'm sure everyone has seen this old airframe converted to electric...

https://skiesmag.com/news/harbour-air-makes-history-with-electric-powered-beaver-flight/

 

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, Kmac said:

And I'm sure everyone has seen this old airframe converted to electric...

https://skiesmag.com/news/harbour-air-makes-history-with-electric-powered-beaver-flight/

 

10 minutes of endurance with legal VFR reserves. It is good for 1 trip around the patch. 
 

Maybe they could put a big diesel generator in the back.

[ZuluZulu]

On 3/7/2022 at 10:07 AM, 1980Mooney said:

Exactly.  If Musk was even remotely interested he would acquire Pipistrel - it already does all those things, it is electric, profitable and certified.

https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/textron-to-acquire-pipistrel/

[carusoam]

Pipestrel fire sale anyone?

Looks extra tough to be in the single engine land business….

To skip the ads… drag your finger past them… to get to Mars helicopter… it’s still flying!

-a-

 

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

While doing some other research, I came across these quotes, both funny for different reasons:

"John Heywood, a professor of mechanical engineering at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, predicts that in 2050, 60 percent of light-duty vehicles will still have combustion engines, often working with electric motors in hybrid systems and largely equipped with a turbocharger. Vehicles powered purely by batteries, he estimates, will make up 15 percent of sales."

100 - 60 - 15 = 25.  How will the other 25% of light-duty vehicles be powered?

"Dr. Heywood, who has pondered whether he would best serve his students by teaching combustion or electrochemistry, addresses the challenge of gasoline’s future from a somewhat different direction: the practical limitations of battery electric cars. “Holding a gas nozzle, you can transfer 10 megawatts of energy in five minutes,” he said, explaining today’s refueling reality. To recharge a Tesla electric at that rate today, he said, would require “a cable you couldn’t hold.” "

MW is a measure of power, not energy.

These come from here:

International Research Journal of Engineering and Technology (IRJET) e-ISSN: 2395-0056 Volume: 07 Issue: 04 | Apr 2020 www.irjet.net p-ISSN: 2395-0072 © 2020, IRJET | Impact Factor value: 7.34 | ISO 9001:2008 Certified Journal | Page 924 Recent Trends in Internal Combustion Engine Rahul T L Student of Department of Mechanical Engineering, Siddaganga Institute of Technology Tumakuru, Karnataka, India

All I can say is, no wonder there is so much confusion out there.

[jaylw314]

5 minutes ago, AH-1 Cobra Pilot said:

"Dr. Heywood, who has pondered whether he would best serve his students by teaching combustion or electrochemistry, addresses the challenge of gasoline’s future from a somewhat different direction: the practical limitations of battery electric cars. “Holding a gas nozzle, you can transfer 10 megawatts of energy in five minutes,” he said, explaining today’s refueling reality. To recharge a Tesla electric at that rate today, he said, would require “a cable you couldn’t hold.” "

I think it would be safe to assume, as an engineer, he was misquoted or intended to say "10 megawatts of energy over 5 minutes".  That's about 100 gallons in 5 minutes, which sounds reasonably close for a gas pump

[A64Pilot]

What astonished me is today I read that 78% of EV owners don’t have any charge capability at home.

I don’t believe that, makes you wonder where they get these numbers? 

https://www.axios.com/electric-car-charging-at-home-difficult-16e060db-2f6c-4b8f-a6fa-48580111ed45.html

But the US Government says over 80% of charging is done at home.

https://www.nrdc.org/experts/patricia-valderrama/electric-vehicle-charging-101

I’m surprised it’s only 80%, never having to stop for gas and starting every day with a “full” tank is really a BIG benefit for us.

 

Edited March 23, 2022 by A64Pilot