How does this estimate sound?

[N9405V]

I just got an estimate back from a shop to install 2 G-5’s (AI and HSI) and a GFC500 and remove the vacuum system and old brittian autopilot. The estimate was just shy of $28,000. This seems like a reasonable price considering the AP has everything but yaw damper included.

 

What does MS think?

 

 

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[Jerry 5TJ]

I think you will find it to be an excellent system upgrade.  I have been giving instruction in a J with that avionics suite, plus a a GTN750, and it is an extraordinary step forward.  

[N9405V]

I’ve got a GTN650 already, so I’m really looking forward to an autopilot that works.


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[donkaye, MCFI]

1 hour ago, N9405V said:

 

I just got an estimate back from a shop to install 2 G-5’s (AI and HSI) and a GFC500 and remove the vacuum system and old brittian autopilot. The estimate was just shy of $28,000. This seems like a reasonable price considering the AP has everything but yaw damper included.

 

What does MS think?

 

 

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I think it is a reasonable price, but for the price of another servo (about 1,500) and a little more labor, since they're already there, I'd go for the Yaw Damper, too.

[N9405V]

I think it is a reasonable price, but for the price of another servo (about 1,500) and a little more labor, since they're already there, I'd go for the Yaw Damper, too.

I’ve got an E, do you think that would be necessary for a short body?


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[Ragsf15e]

1 minute ago, N9405V said:

I’ve got an E, do you think that would be necessary for a short body?


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Necessary, no, but I also don’t think you’ll regret it.  
Price seems reasonable too, especially considering 2xG5s by themselves (installed) is typically 10-12k.

Are you getting the oat sensor for Tas and winds?  I’d include that as well.

[Vance Harral]

2 hours ago, donkaye said:

I think it is a reasonable price, but for the price of another servo (about 1,500) and a little more labor, since they're already there, I'd go for the Yaw Damper, too.

2 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Necessary, no, but I also don’t think you’ll regret it.  

Out of curiosity, can you guys elaborate on what undesirable behavior occurs in a GFC500 installation without the yaw damper?

I haven't flown or ridden in a Mooney with a GFC500 autopilot.  But the local flight school I teach at (amazingly) has GFC500s in every one of their airplanes.  So I've flow with them in 172s, 182s, and a PA-28, including on 1 or 2-ish hour XC flights.  Some of these airplanes lack the pitch trim servo, and manually managing trim is mildly annoying.  But none of them have the yaw damper servo, and I can't detect anything about the way the airplane flies that I think would be improved with a yaw-sensing gyro, including flying in turbulence.  My opinion is uninformed, however, having never actually flown with a GFC500 yaw damper in any airplane at all.  I'd like to learn more.

[Ragsf15e]

15 minutes ago, Vance Harral said:

Out of curiosity, can you guys elaborate on what undesirable behavior occurs in a GFC500 installation without the yaw damper?

I haven't flown or ridden in a Mooney with a GFC500 autopilot.  But the local flight school I teach at (amazingly) has GFC500s in every one of their airplanes.  So I've flow with them in 172s, 182s, and a PA-28, including on 1 or 2-ish hour XC flights.  Some of these airplanes lack the pitch trim servo, and manually managing trim is mildly annoying.  But none of them have the yaw damper servo, and I can't detect anything about the way the airplane flies that I think would be improved with a yaw-sensing gyro, including flying in turbulence.  My opinion is uninformed, however, having never actually flown with a GFC500 yaw damper in any airplane at all.  I'd like to learn more.

So nothing “undesirable” about not having it, more relaxing to have it.  It helps smooth out the bumps in light turbulence and will keep the airplane coordinated for you in most conditions.  Basically just freeing you up even more to focus on bigger picture tasks.

Since we don’t have rudder trim, it may or may not alleviate all your right rudder during climb , but it will keep you coordinated at all your cruise airspeeds and during descent.  My F (without yaw damper) requires a little right rudder in cruise depending on IAS and it requires left rudder in decent.  Yaw damper takes care of that and helps in turbulence.  Seems worth it to me if you’re getting the gfc500.

[dylanac]

Price looks great to me. I just had dual G5s put in my E and you will love them. I didn't have an autopilot put in, so I gained around 17lbs with the removal of all the old crap. I would agree with those saying to get the yaw damper, since our planes do not have rudder trim I sometimes find myself having to hold left or right rudder in cruise depending on what IAS I'm at.

[Skates97]

5 hours ago, N9405V said:

 

I just got an estimate back from a shop to install 2 G-5’s (AI and HSI) and a GFC500 and remove the vacuum system and old brittian autopilot. The estimate was just shy of $28,000. This seems like a reasonable price considering the AP has everything but yaw damper included.

 

What does MS think?

 

 

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Sounds about right, my quote for the GFC500 (no yaw damper) was just under $19k and they came in just under the quote. I already had the dual G-5's in the plane.

[StevenL757]

5 hours ago, N9405V said:

 

I just got an estimate back from a shop to install 2 G-5’s (AI and HSI) and a GFC500 and remove the vacuum system and old brittian autopilot. The estimate was just shy of $28,000. This seems like a reasonable price considering the AP has everything but yaw damper included.

What does MS think?

It sounds reasonable; however, I'd personally spend a small amount extra (in the grand scheme) and add the YD servo.  A really good option that your passengers will thank you for in the long run.  You'll likely be at $30k, or just slightly under.  Money well-spent in my opinion.

[rbp]

FWIW -- I went for the trim servo and the yaw damper in my M. 

[ArtVandelay]

I’ve got an E, do you think that would be necessary for a short body?

How often do you fly in turbulence? When you do, do you feel the plane yaw alot?

If answer is rarely or no…you don’t need a YD. You’re wasting $4000, remember you can always add it afterwards.

BTW, price I got online is $31,000 for what you asked about.

[LANCECASPER]

11 hours ago, N9405V said:

 

I just got an estimate back from a shop to install 2 G-5’s (AI and HSI) and a GFC500 and remove the vacuum system and old brittian autopilot. The estimate was just shy of $28,000. This seems like a reasonable price considering the AP has everything but yaw damper included.

 

What does MS think?

 

 

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The only other question I'd ask is how many have they installed in Mooneys. I'd hate to be any shop's 1st install in a Mooney. There's not much room to work in the tail and I'm sure there's a learning curve in getting the brackets in there correctly and the tensions right.

[carusoam]

9 hours ago, N9405V said:

I’ve got an E, do you think that would be necessary for a short body?


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Since the AP doesn’t rank very high on the necessary list…

The YD is pretty far down the list of needed stuff…

 

But…. Anyone that has installed the YD has remarked how well it works…

Keep in mind… the computing power needed to have a functional YD is much more powerful than what was available in the 90s….

So…. Most Mooneys didn’t get one from the factory….

 

One of the coolest things the newer Mooney did get from the factory… rudder trim…. Rudder trim allows you to trim for the climb, trim for cruise and trim the rudder again for the descent… picking up a few kias just for flying straight, with the ball centered, each time the attitude changes….

 

Now…. If we look at all the Mooney models, from short body to long body… we know the short body is more prone to yaw…. Than the Long body with their tail so far aft….

Summary… 

1) No… you don’t need the Yaw Damper….

2) Yes… you do want the Yaw Damper….

3) The best time to add the YD is simultaneously with the rest of the AP system…

 

How does that sound?

Just an MSer trying to help out another MSer spend OPM….

Expend the excess OPM, get the YD installed….   

Best regards,

-a-

[ArtVandelay]

The only other question I'd ask is how many have they installed in Mooneys. I'd hate to be any shop's 1st install in a Mooney. There's not much room to work in the tail and I'm sure there's a learning curve in getting the brackets in there correctly and the tensions right.

Actually the access isn’t bad, the bracket is just aft of the battery panel (not sure if this is true for all models), and will have 3 servos (trim,elevator, rudder) mounted together, somewhere on MS there are pictures of an installation.

[Mooney in Oz]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

Actually the access isn’t bad, the bracket is just aft of the battery panel (not sure if this is true for all models), and will have 3 servos (trim,elevator, rudder) mounted together, somewhere on MS there are pictures of an installation.

According to my airframe guy, installing the roll servo and associated parts was the most labour intensive and intricate part of the job, mainly due to the limitations of the underwing inspection panels.

[Marauder]

I just got an estimate back from a shop to install 2 G-5’s (AI and HSI) and a GFC500 and remove the vacuum system and old brittian autopilot. The estimate was just shy of $28,000. This seems like a reasonable price considering the AP has everything but yaw damper included.
 
What does MS think?
 
 
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After going through 3 major avionics upgrades, here are a few things I would watch out for.

1) Make sure you understand the difference between an estimate and a quote. I have had one shop try to increase the cost of the estimate by 50% once they got started on the plane. Their excuse was “unforeseen issues”. I make a point of it to get a quote by insisting they check out the plane before they quote it.
2) Go through the quote/estimate carefully to look for a complete job. Often they will quote a vanilla package and attempt to add on features - in other words, do your homework on what you are getting and make sure it is what you want. Like some have pointed out, a yaw damper might be a good thing to add on now, not later.
3) Many shops won’t clean up old wiring. If you are doing a substantial upgrade, insist that old wire be removed.
4) Sometimes the quote is lower because they are taking short cuts. In my case, the shop that installed the GTN and GNC 255 reused the old RG-58. I ended up running new RG-400 when I started having radio issues.
5) Agree with the shop how you will handle truly unexpected problems. A pre-inspection of the plane before quoting will help eliminate most surprises but if they encounter something that needs addressed, I’d want to make sure it got addressed and not hidden (like wrapping electrical tape on a compromised RG cable).

I found the more I knew about what I wanted installed, the better the quote was.


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[mhrivnak]

The yaw damper is nice even in relatively light turbulence. I can turn it off and back on and notice a significant difference. Especially if you fly with anyone who is sensitive to turbulence, reducing yaw can help a lot.

On a related note, the GFC 500 handles turbulence MUCH better than the KAP 150 did. It gives a much smoother ride.