Pilot Proficiency Program - Mooney Safety

[Jay Bird]

Anyone have any experience with the Pilot Proficiency Programs put on by Mooneysafety.com? There is one scheduled at KLAL at the end of the month. Not to be a CB but $850.00 would get a lot of time with a local CFI/CFII. Just looking for a PIREP from anyone who has taken the course in the past.

Thanks 

[mooniac15u]

 

[LANCECASPER]

 

[KB4]

Full day of class and full day of flying. You will learn a lot.  I attended Springfield Mass, walked out with great knowledge and confidence.  Also some of the best Maple syrup (Came in our goodie bag). I plan to attend Reading.  

3 of the many good topic they go over 

flying by the numbers - power settings simplified 

expected performance- based on MP and RPM what should you be getting in all phases etc… 

maintenance

 

[sleeper-319]

I’m considering doing the west coast one in April in Santa Maria. I might have my IR by then, but my plane will not be IFR at the time. What happens if weather is IMC in Santa Maria that weekend?

 

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by sleeper-319

[skydvrboy]

I've been considering one of these but for me it's a tough sell, primarily because I don't understand what my fees are actually buying.  It seems that everyone who has attended agrees it's money well spent, but where does the money go?  From what I understand the instructors are voluntary (as reported by other attendees), the fees don't include the hotel rooms, I assume their not buying my Avgas, so what actually costs $850, what am I actually paying for?

On the other hand, my CFI has over 20 years and 2000 hours experience in a '67 M20F, just a few SN's from mine and he charged me $25/hr for all my transition training.  My CFII (unfortunately 0 Mooney time) bills me $40/hr for my instrument training.  So, for less than the cost of the PPP, I can get all the instruction needed to for my instrument rating, which sure seems like a lot better value.  I must be missing something, but what?

[Danb]

I’ve been to about 10 or so of the programs, it’s the best 800-900 I spend yearly. Plus according to my insurance broker it saves quite a bit also being in my 70’s it should keep me in the air longer.

[hubcap]

2 hours ago, skydvrboy said:

I've been considering one of these but for me it's a tough sell, primarily because I don't understand what my fees are actually buying.  It seems that everyone who has attended agrees it's money well spent, but where does the money go?  From what I understand the instructors are voluntary (as reported by other attendees), the fees don't include the hotel rooms, I assume their not buying my Avgas, so what actually costs $850, what am I actually paying for?

On the other hand, my CFI has over 20 years and 2000 hours experience in a '67 M20F, just a few SN's from mine and he charged me $25/hr for all my transition training.  My CFII (unfortunately 0 Mooney time) bills me $40/hr for my instrument training.  So, for less than the cost of the PPP, I can get all the instruction needed to for my instrument rating, which sure seems like a lot better value.  I must be missing something, but what?

You get a whole host of instructors that probably have tens of thousands of Mooney hours combined and literally know every nut and bolt in your aircraft and probably the guys who built your aircraft. This is not just some CFI or CFII instruction.

The CFII who instructed me for my instrument rating has never even flown in a Mooney.

If you don't want to go or the money is a problem, just pass.

 

[Hank]

10 hours ago, skydvrboy said:

I've been considering one of these but for me it's a tough sell, primarily because I don't understand what my fees are actually buying.  It seems that everyone who has attended agrees it's money well spent, but where does the money go?  From what I understand the instructors are voluntary (as reported by other attendees), the fees don't include the hotel rooms, I assume their not buying my Avgas, so what actually costs $850, what am I actually paying for?

On the other hand, my CFI has over 20 years and 2000 hours experience in a '67 M20F, just a few SN's from mine and he charged me $25/hr for all my transition training.  My CFII (unfortunately 0 Mooney time) bills me $40/hr for my instrument training.  So, for less than the cost of the PPP, I can get all the instruction needed to for my instrument rating, which sure seems like a lot better value.  I must be missing something, but what?

You get a Flight Review, an IPC if you're instrument rated, Wings credit and a few others that I'm probably forgetting. All classroom instruction is from multiple experienced CFIIs and IAs. They cover flight regimes, engine operations, Avionics, maintenance, upgrades . . . And there's a big, fat notebook chock full of information that you won't remember but can easily look up. Just like IFR classes, it's drinking from a firehose. 

It's a total of 16 classroom hours taught by te best instructors, and 4 hours of flight instruction in your plane, doing things you haven't done lately (or ever), all reinforcing the ground parts.

I went to my first one a month after finishing my insurance dual, and hit 100 hours total time enroute to Hopkinsville, KY. Going back every few years helps me get out of any bad habits that have crept in.

What does the money go for? I'm sure the FBO charges them something. There's a shuttle van so that you don't need to rent a car to go between the hotel and the airport. Notebooks need to be printed, punched and assembled. I hope they give something (even if it's only coffee and donuts) to the guys in the tower who spend hours with a dozen or more Mooneys in the air, shooting approaches, landing, taking off and causing confusion by compressing a week's operations into Saturday afternoon. 

[FlyingDude]

Hey guys,

I've been thinking of going. I'm a cfi myself and I see value in flying with people who know there quirks of a particular plane. Simple example: Mooneys don't stall like Cessnas. When I got my Mooney, I was only required to get a signoff and I wasn't required to do any hours. But my prebuy inspector (who is a pilot and actually worked for Mooney) and I ferried the plane, and it was extremely informative. Then I flew with a cfii buddy for the signoff. It was supposed to be a quick lap around the field, and we got into a fight. According to him I was too fast on final whereas I was spot on. I was doing 70kts and he was demanding 90kts, as "Mooneys are fast planes and you don't want to stall". I told him how this plane is notorious for floating and it's not your PA28 that falls like a rock. Now, I cross the fence at 70 kts if heavy with high density altitude, 62-65kts otherwise. Next day, I did an IPC with another guy who had 500+hrs in a Mooney and the difference was obvious.

The point is, flying with instructors with specific type and make experience pays off, unless you're just renting to fly 30 min once a month on calm days.

One caveat: I heard that some people's insurance was actually going UP after attending these events. Is that true???

Cheers,

F

[LANCECASPER]

4 minutes ago, FlyingDude said:

According to him I was too fast on final whereas I was spot on. I was doing 70kts and he was demanding 90kts,

???

[skydvrboy]

12 hours ago, hubcap said:

If you don't want to go or the money is a problem, just pass.

That's just it, everyone who goes says it's worth it and the bang for their buck training.  Surely they can't all be wrong? 

It just seems like their out of pocket expenses would be about $100 per person and they're pocketing the remaining $750 as profit.  $100 ea. is on par with what it costs to put on the 3 day Mooney Caravan clinic each year with very similar costs to what @Hank described.  This, of course, assumes they aren't paying the instructors, which is the story that's been relayed.

[Hank]

21 minutes ago, skydvrboy said:

That's just it, everyone who goes says it's worth it and the bang for their buck training.  Surely they can't all be wrong? 

It just seems like their out of pocket expenses would be about $100 per person and they're pocketing the remaining $750 as profit.  $100 ea. is on par with what it costs to put on the 3 day Mooney Caravan clinic each year with very similar costs to what @Hank described.  This, of course, assumes they aren't paying the instructors, which is the story that's been relayed.

How much is quality instruction worth? Learning how to best operate your plane? Proper maintenance procedures, for owners and A&Ps? Safety procedures with in-air practice?

I like to get a refresher periodically. Maybe this summer?

[steingar]

Wish I could do it.  Sounds well worth it.  Standardized curricula are nothing to be sneezed at.  Guys who's bread and butter is Mooneys are good guys to learn from and fly with.  Maybe I'll retire some day...

[hubcap]

10 hours ago, FlyingDude said:

One caveat: I heard that some people's insurance was actually going UP after attending these events. Is that true???

I took the class in 2021 and I just renewed my insurance. The premium went down a little over $2,000

To be fair, I finished my instrument rating, got almost 200hrs of complex time this year, and took the MAPA training. 

I cannot imagine why anyone's insurance would go up after getting additional training....but I am not an insurance guy.

[PeytonM]

I’ve done two PPP courses in my nearly 30 years of my 201 ownership, (and will do more now that I’ve retired!), flights with Bruce nearly every year, and I flew with Mike (MooneyPros) last spring. Like many have stated already, flying with an instructor who has significant Mooney experience is priceless; I learned something new every time I flew with these gents. (Early on, I flew with a couple instructors who looked at the Mooney as a funny looking Arrow (or C or B brands) and we started out using those numbers; that did not work out well! Never again!)

Where does the money go: I guess I never really thought about it. Conference rooms, refreshments, lunch, the dinner/banquet. I don’t know whether instructors are compensated, but I hope at least their travel expenses are reimbursed. When you listen to pilots summarize their experiences at the closing dinner, you understand the effort the the Board has made to bring In the top guns! The MAPASF is a 501(c)(3).

One of the major advantages is that you are with other Mooney pilots with many different experience levels. Lunches, dinners and breaks offers time to learn even more: maintenance issues, avionics, etc.  I think the only other gathering of Mooney’s that offers a similar chance to interact is the Mooney Summit!

I cannot underscore the value of the PPPs. 

[LANCECASPER]

Where does the money go? I’m sure Instructors’ travel expenses are reimbursed, their rooms and meals are paid for. Classrooms need to be rented, teaching materials covered. The MAPA Safety Foundation does at least one scholarship per year.

People focus way too much on cost rather than value. If after all of these years it wasn’t worth it for enough people, I think we’d know by now. Very simple, if you don’t see the value don’t sign up.  If you have very talented people volunteering their time and enough pilots signing up throughout the year it seems like a great resource for Mooney pilots. I’m sold. I’ve never been to one, but I just convinced myself to sign up for Lakeland.

When I was in a partnership in a Malibu Mirage and later a Meridian, if I wanted insurance I had to take annual training, at at least three times the cost of what MAPA is offering it for, and even 20 years ago I felt it was worth more than I paid. Say whatever you want about insurance companies, but one thing for sure, they have the numbers to go by. They wouldn’t give discounts for annual training if it wasn’t in their best interest. If all Mooney pilots took annual training it seems likely that we would all be paying less.

[carusoam]

Personalized self paced instruction…

By the top tier of Mooney specific CFIIs…

Plus a few days of hanging out having discussions with other Mooney owners… that are not always MSers…

Expensive… yes!

You do get what you pay for in this case…

If you haven’t executed some of the stranger approaches in your area…. PARs and arc approaches… this is the place to pick up some unexpected experiences…

The added value… it is personalized.  If you have a challenge you want to work through… this is a great way to do that too…

 

If you are a really good CFII and have tons of Mooney experience… come and meet the other folks that are your peers…

Best regards,

 -a-

[Yetti]

I know two of the instructors.   have lunch with them every so often.  Lot's of information between the two of them.  They are fantastic pilots.   The one thing I learned early on is never try to out cool them on stories.   they will always have a better one.   "So there I was getting ready to fly a mission at Top Gun"

[amillet]

I have attended 9 of these and plan to go to Santa Maria in April. I recall hearing the biggest expense is insurance and expect the instructors travel expenses are reimbursed 

[kortopates]

I have attended 9 of these and plan to go to Santa Maria in April. I recall hearing the biggest expense is insurance and expect the instructors travel expenses are reimbursed 

Exactly! And even the full tuition doesn’t cover 100% of the expenses, the Foundation relies on donations above the recovered tuition they get in order to keep giving these. There is certainly no profit happening!
past instructor at these for at least 7-8 years. Actually closer to double that.


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[kortopates]

I’m considering doing the west coast one in April in Santa Maria. I might have my IR by then, but my plane will not be IFR at the time. What happens if weather is IMC in Santa Maria that weekend?
 
 

that means you may need to cancel and if so, you can reschedule for a future PPP.

If your unable to do the instrument training flight it’s not a problem, you’d just continue to do more VFR training working on what ever skills you would like. Although we have a syllabus, we’re their to help meet your needs and goals.


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[amillet]

When I was unable to attend in Santa Maria a few years ago due to weather I was able to later attend in Denver.  This is a top notch organization that will work with you in a completely fair and open manner 

[Daniel Low]

I have been to two of them and found them very useful. You do get 2 hours of dual but more important, the instructors are expert at Mooneys and there is a lot of information concerning flying and owning these planes.

[kortopates]

4 hours ago, Daniel Low said:

I have been to two of them and found them very useful. You do get 2 hours of dual but more important, the instructors are expert at Mooneys and there is a lot of information concerning flying and owning these planes.

two flights each upto 2hrs - for 4 hrs dual