M20E vs M20J

[ArtVandelay]

Is this before or after your paint job?

Your voltage reads a little low, might want to get out your digital multimeter and verify voltages, especially at the battery. Otherwise it could be undercharging.

Is your airspeed gauge original? Mine is different and we’re the same year.

[201er]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

Is this before or after your paint job?

After. Picked up a few since.

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

Your voltage reads a little low, might want to get out your digital multimeter and verify voltages, especially at the battery. Otherwise it could be undercharging.

It’s been like this for a decade across several alternators and 2nd battery.

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

Is your airspeed gauge original? Mine is different and we’re the same year.

As far as I know.

[MMsuper21]

The M20E has a Vne of 189mph (165kts). I think you will be pushing your luck trying to cruise at 170kts. I think with all the speed mods its possible. I routinely cruise around 150kts+. I will need to take some pics of the ASI it’s based off gps. I have the cowl enclosure and one piece non 201 windshield and possibly some other speed mods I am not aware of. 

Besides the extra rear leg room the J has higher Vne, Vfe and and Vlo speeds.  It like people tuning their cars doubling the hp and not upgrading their brakes. 

[MBDiagMan]

22 hours ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

I heard at one point that they changed the amount of washout in the J wing which made it a little faster, ie an F with all the J mods will never be as fast as a J. Anyone know if this is true?  

I suspect it to be true.  My F has all J mods, but, of course, still has an F wing.  It is close, but not quite as fast as a J.

[MBDiagMan]

8 hours ago, corn_flake said:

Any one have a picture of the twist wing Mooney?  

Mine is a twist wing.  I will try to get a picture that shows it.

[201er]

37 minutes ago, MMsuper21 said:

The M20E has a Vne of 189mph (165kts). I think you will be pushing your luck trying to cruise at 170kts.

Wow really? How are you supposed to descend? Those things don’t even have speed brakes!

[MMsuper21]

13 minutes ago, 201er said:

Wow really? How are you supposed to descend? Those things don’t even have speed brakes!

lol, I must admit it took me a few flights to figure it out. 

[Oliver]

1 hour ago, MMsuper21 said:

The M20E has a Vne of 189mph (165kts).  

Yes, but this is CAS. At a typical cruise altitude, this translates to +180 kts TAS.

[201er]

11 minutes ago, Oliver said:

Yes, but this is CAS. At a typical cruise altitude, this translates to +180 kts TAS.

 

 

[MMsuper21]

@201er why is your redline at 200kts? I am crazy enough to fly however I take calculated risks see N231BY. These planes are hand build and you might have a good one, but they are also  older than me  and my knees are not as they used to be. As an engineer I like to stick to numbers and envelopes. 
 

But still jelly of your speeds. 

[Oliver]

2 hours ago, 201er said:

???

I was responding to MMsuper21's statements that 170 kts TAS would exceed the M20E's Vne of 165 kts, which is however defined in CAS and not TAS. At typical cruise altitudes, 165 kts CAS would however translates to over 180 kts TAS, hence at 170 kts TAS the wings will stay on.

[Oliver]

1 hour ago, MMsuper21 said:

@201er why is your redline at 200kts? I am crazy enough to fly however I take calculated risks see N231BY. These planes are hand build and you might have a good one, but they are also  older than me  and my knees are not as they used to be. As an engineer I like to stick to numbers and envelopes. 
 

But still jelly of your speeds. 

"[...] its southerly course its ground speed increased to 240 knots. [...] Engineering analysis and testing by the airframe manufacturer predicted the onset of flutter to occur at 241 knots. [...]"

OK, it's groundspeed and not airpeed, but if anything the N231BY crash is proof of the good engineering that went into Mooneys, as flutter occured pretty much exactly where predicted. So, yeah, stay within the published envelope and you'll be fine. No need to add extra safety margins, as the Mooney engineers already took care of this for you.

Edited January 5, 2022 by Oliver

[Shadrach]

On 1/3/2022 at 11:12 PM, bluehighwayflyer said:

No.  It’s not true.  At least not as stated.  In an apparently-misguided attempt to tame the M20’s stall characteristics Mooney experimented with washout a bit in/around 1967 and 1968 with F and G models.  Or thereabouts.  Once you know what you are looking at these “bent wing” Mooneys really stand out visually to the eye, but by all reports the “bent wing” had very little effect aerodynamically and it was quickly abandoned.  I don’t like they way they look, personally, but I really don’t think that there is anything wrong with them, and many if not most  F models don’t have the “bent wing”.   I don’t think that any C or E models that were built during the same time period had the “bent wing”, but I’m not 100% sure about that.  

As far as the speed differential between Es and J’s goes, in the real world, unmodified, it is probably on the order of 10 knots. Much more significant that that, though, between these two models are the J’s increased rear seat leg room and baggage room and increased fuel capacity.  

My 67 F has a twist wing as does I believe John Breda’s 68. Mooney built a total of 742 F models in 1967 and 1968. I think the majority of Fs are twist wing. How much of a majority I don’t know. 

[M20F-1968]

I have a 68 F with all of the J model airframe modifications except for inner gear doors.  Mine is a 160 kt airplane at 75% power and 100 ROP,  a 168 kt airplane at full power and ROP, both at 10,000 ft.  At 17,500 ft it is a 175-178 kt airplane at 100 ROP and 75% power.   LOP at the same altitude, subtract about 5-6 kts.

Somewhere here I posted a picture of my panel verifying some of these numbers.

I has a twisted wing, but it really is not a "twist."  The last wing section is set at a slight downward angle, with the outboard leading edge about 1 1/2" lower than normal.  The line from the tip leading edge to the next lap joint is straight.  There is no recognized loss of speed.  Theoretically the stall is more benign, at least that was the intend (to keep tho outboard section of the wing flying despite an inboard stall).

John Breda

[Shadrach]

On 1/3/2022 at 10:11 PM, DCarlton said:

I've concluded after many flights between the same two airports, that my F with all the J mods is a 153 knot airplane (with a 3 blade prop).  So... I'll bet with all the speed mods including the cowl and windscreen and a two blade, you could get that or more out of an E.  I'm sure someone has done it.  

I've reached the same conclusion in high power cruise except for my F model is bone stock... On the deck it will break 160KIAS with everything full forward.  Corrected would be somewhat less but it's such an impractical power setting as to make no difference.

The speed conversation get silly as it is truly a hair splitting exercise.  There is likely a 3-5% delta between same model airframes based on combination of factors.

[jaylw314]

14 hours ago, MMsuper21 said:

@201er why is your redline at 200kts? I am crazy enough to fly however I take calculated risks see N231BY. These planes are hand build and you might have a good one, but they are also  older than me  and my knees are not as they used to be. As an engineer I like to stick to numbers and envelopes. 
 

But still jelly of your speeds. 

?? The Vne for the M20J is indeed 198 KIAS

[corn_flake]

Thank you all for the lively discussions.  

My M20E with J motor cruises at 140kt at 6000 feet. This is the LOP at 2400 RPM.  This number has been adjusted for altitude, temperature, and pressure. As someone has mentioned, my ASI could be off.  I may go out and do a few triangle run and calculate the actual speed using GPS.  

Based on the 150kt mentioned here for E, I think I'm not too far off.  After all, my E is pretty much stock and the motor probably started to show its age.  I don't think it would be worth the money to overhaul the motor ($30k) to get the extra 10kt.    Perhaps I will visit the "magic detailer" that my hanger neighbor keep telling me.  Supposedly, the magic wax job will get me 3 extra knots for only $300.        Far better return on investment if it's true.  

I recall at least one MSer took up Lycoming's offer and went with IO-390.  I wonder if they would be willing to share their actual cruising speed.  

 

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, corn_flake said:

Thank you all for the lively discussions.  

My M20E with J motor cruises at 140kt at 6000 feet. This is the LOP at 2400 RPM.  This number has been adjusted for altitude, temperature, and pressure. As someone has mentioned, my ASI could be off.  I may go out and do a few triangle run and calculate the actual speed using GPS.  

Based on the 150kt mentioned here for E, I think I'm not too far off.  After all, my E is pretty much stock and the motor probably started to show its age.  I don't think it would be worth the money to overhaul the motor ($30k) to get the extra 10kt.    Perhaps I will visit the "magic detailer" that my hanger neighbor keep telling me.  Supposedly, the magic wax job will get me 3 extra knots for only $300.        Far better return on investment if it's true.  

I recall at least one MSer took up Lycoming's offer and went with IO-390.  I wonder if they would be willing to share their actual cruising speed.  

 

How far LOP? 2400 and lean is not go fast mode.

[takair]

2 hours ago, corn_flake said:

Thank you all for the lively discussions.  

My M20E with J motor cruises at 140kt at 6000 feet. This is the LOP at 2400 RPM.  This number has been adjusted for altitude, temperature, and pressure. As someone has mentioned, my ASI could be off.  I may go out and do a few triangle run and calculate the actual speed using GPS.  

Based on the 150kt mentioned here for E, I think I'm not too far off.  After all, my E is pretty much stock and the motor probably started to show its age.  I don't think it would be worth the money to overhaul the motor ($30k) to get the extra 10kt.    Perhaps I will visit the "magic detailer" that my hanger neighbor keep telling me.  Supposedly, the magic wax job will get me 3 extra knots for only $300.        Far better return on investment if it's true.  

I recall at least one MSer took up Lycoming's offer and went with IO-390.  I wonder if they would be willing to share their actual cruising speed.  

 

As someone else mentioned, rigging….control and gear….can be a big factor.  These can be the cheapest and best speed mod for any Mooney.  They can also be done incrementally.   My recommendation, next annual, get eyes on the gear doors.  They could be airworthy but hanging down a little…. My E is one that will regularly true out at better than 150ktas (ROP).  This time of year, it will run near red line in smooth air.  This is well into the yellow, so this is one place where a 201 or newer Mooney makes you feel better when running flat out. This is after years of tweaking rigging.  I did also get a significant speed boost with a top overhaul.  It was interesting that compressions were generally good, but oil burn was high due to ring issues.  I never expected the speed jump I got, but was happy to get it.  I did also go with aftermarket pistons….but they are theoretically identical to original…

Very timely thread here regarding the benefits of rigging:  

 

 

[corn_flake]

56 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

How far LOP? 2400 and lean is not go fast mode.

Yes, I'm aware of that.  I'm usually not out to to set speed record.  so, i'm ok with 2400 while burning 8.5 gallon/hour.   

Presumably, if I run ROP at max RPM, I may get a few more knots.  In short, I'm talking my self out of an engine overhaul.   

[Mooney Dog]

3 hours ago, corn_flake said:

Thank you all for the lively discussions.  

My M20E with J motor cruises at 140kt at 6000 feet. This is the LOP at 2400 RPM.  This number has been adjusted for altitude, temperature, and pressure. As someone has mentioned, my ASI could be off.  I may go out and do a few triangle run and calculate the actual speed using GPS.  

Based on the 150kt mentioned here for E, I think I'm not too far off.  After all, my E is pretty much stock and the motor probably started to show its age.  I don't think it would be worth the money to overhaul the motor ($30k) to get the extra 10kt.    Perhaps I will visit the "magic detailer" that my hanger neighbor keep telling me.  Supposedly, the magic wax job will get me 3 extra knots for only $300.        Far better return on investment if it's true.  

I recall at least one MSer took up Lycoming's offer and went with IO-390.  I wonder if they would be willing to share their actual cruising speed.  

 

2400 rpm, 21mp at the time, ROP. After landing and top off calculated a 9.4gph burn. Id says the E can do pretty good. 

[Igor_U]

On 1/4/2022 at 9:45 AM, Jerry Pressley said:

did the twist wing have anything to do with the development of the Mustang?  that was the time of its development and it had it.

 

Jerry,

I believe so; at least I seems to remember reading that in Larry Ball's book "Those remarkable Mooneys".

BTW, Does anyone know what happened with his daughter's effort to release the book again?

: 

 

[TStepp]

FWIW - from a recent speed run in our 67 M20F:

Configuration:
67 M20F S/N 67-0204
Lycoming IO-360-A1A, 950 hrs. since remanufactured
2-blade Hartzell prop, SWTA cowl / windshield / spinner, LASAR speed fairing mods (wing and tail roots, dorsal fin, etc.), Brake Wheel Cylinder Rotation, no inner gear doors
~500 lbs below MGW (~2250)

Conditions:
High pressure system over San Diego area, stable air mass (inversion layer)
7,500 MSL, 16 deg. C OAT (5 deg. C on the ground)
22" MP (ram air open), 2600 RPM, 100 deg. ROP, 12.3 GPH

Result (derived from 4x GPS ground speed velocity vectors):  153 kts

 

 

 

 

[Jerry Pressley]

did any of the 67 and 68 F have a normal non twist wing?

 

[MMsuper21]

12 hours ago, TStepp said:

FWIW - from a recent speed run in our 67 M20F:

Configuration:
67 M20F S/N 67-0204
Lycoming IO-360-A1A, 950 hrs. since remanufactured
2-blade Hartzell prop, SWTA cowl / windshield / spinner, LASAR speed fairing mods (wing and tail roots, dorsal fin, etc.), Brake Wheel Cylinder Rotation, no inner gear doors
~500 lbs below MGW (~2250)

Conditions:
High pressure system over San Diego area, stable air mass (inversion layer)
7,500 MSL, 16 deg. C OAT (5 deg. C on the ground)
22" MP (ram air open), 2600 RPM, 100 deg. ROP, 12.3 GPH

Result (derived from 4x GPS ground speed velocity vectors):  153 kts

 

 

 

 

Did you add all those speed mods or did they come with the plane? I was debating on the LASAR speed fairing mods (wing and tail roots, dorsal fin, etc.) not sure if they are really worth it.