Do NOT try this at home!!

[hubcap]

I considered posting this in the Miscellaneous Aviation Talk forum, but it is a safety related post, so here it is.

Last weekend my wife and I decided to fly to K81 and grab some bbq at "We B Smokin". It was a beautiful, but windy, VFR day. The winds were steady at around 20 kts with frequent gusts to 30kts. The wind direction was pretty constant from 240 - 250. The airport runway is 3,400' long and is oriented 210 - 030. When we approached the airport there was a student doing take offs and landings in a C-172 on runway 21. We landed and taxied to the ramp, parking next to a Bonanza. The pilot of the Bonanza and his family were loading up as we were shutting down. 

The hangers and the restaurant are located at the southern end of runway 21. The student in the C-172 lands and taxis to the ramp while the Bonanza is getting started up and getting ready to taxi. The Bonanza begins to taxi out and the C172 follows. There is no taxiway so to takeoff on runway 21 it requires you to back taxi almost the entire length of the runway. The Bonanza runs up and then to my surprise, he proceeds to takeoff DOWNWIND on runway 03 and makes no radio call on CTAF. The Bonanza used between 2/3 to 3/4 of the runway just to get off the ground. Fortunately for the pilot K81 is in Kansas and there were no large obstacles for him to climb over. 

Meanwhile the student in the 172 taxis into position to take off DOWNWIND on runway 03. I told my wife she had better watch this because it was about to get interesting. I could see that the student had neutral aileron as he started rolling. Sure enough as soon as he rotates and gets airborne, he catches a big gust from his 8:00 which caused the plane to roll 90 degrees. The wings were literally vertical and his right wing tip was maybe 10' off the ground. He was able to recover but just barely. 

While there was no accident, it seemed like sharing this might just help someone to avoid repeating this with perhaps a worse outcome. 

I have no idea why the Bonanza pilot chose to take off downwind. Perhaps his destination was to the North and he didn't want to back taxi full length and then have to make a 180 degree turn out upon takeoff. The student had previously been taking off and landing on runway 21 so he knew which runway was preferred. I suppose he saw the Bonanza takeoff and and thought he could do it too.  In any event, please don't try this at home.

 

Edited December 19, 2021 by hubcap

[PeteMc]

Monkey see, monkey do....

Glad it all worked out for the newbie in the 172.  My guess he won't be doing that again or assuming those guys in the Bonanzas know what they're doing!!

[carusoam]

Yikes!

Did the C172 return for landing, going the right way?

Or left… never to look back?

All the visual cues must have been brain overloading….

With a strong tail wind… the trees are zipping by quickly, but the ASI is reading normally….

Getting near the tree height, the tail winds increase... and the ASI shows how slow you are actually going into the decreasing (increasing in a negative direction) relative wind…

The stall horn must have been screaming….

Thanks for sharing the experience…

Best regards,

-a-

[kortopates]

Are you sure that was a student pilot in the C172? I can’t imagine a CFI ever signing off a student to solo without limitations that would be greatly exceeded by the winds described. Plus many of us require the student to contact us with wx conditions before the flight as an additional check - and again after.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Rusty Pilot]

Did you make a call on the unicom frequency and remind 172 of wind direction?  He may have been making an intentional downwind takeoff, but more likely doing this in error. This could have had tragic results.

[201er]

20 hours ago, hubcap said:

The Bonanza used between 2/3 to 3/4 of the runway just to get off the ground. Fortunately for the pilot K81 is in Kansas and there were no large obstacles for him to climb over. 

The student had previously been taking off and landing on runway 21 so he knew which runway was preferred. I suppose he saw the Bonanza takeoff and and thought he could do it too.  In any event, please don't try this at home.

Now think hard and be honest with yourself what you would have done if you weren’t shutting down but rather #3 for takeoff between these two? Would you back taxi full length or end up taking off using 4/4?

[Pete M]

Student? Never should have been in those winds. If its me, i get on the radio and ask him what the hell he thinks he's doing. But I assume you thought he would back taxi and not take off.

[N201MKTurbo]

4 minutes ago, Pete M said:

Student? Never should have been in those winds. If its me, i get on the radio and ask him what the hell he thinks he's doing. But I assume you thought he would back taxi and not take off.

So, when do you learn to fly in winds?

[Pete M]

With your cfi. My usual total wind limit for solo students is 15kt...8kt cross. Taking off with a what...25kt tail wind? Instant revocation of solo privileges pending remedial training and extensive re-evaluation and quite possibly followed by a discussion about how he'd be better off taking up golf. His cfi would have a lot to answer for as well. There are a lot of issues that need to be addressed when a student does something that stupid.

[201er]

1 hour ago, Pete M said:

Student? Never should have been in those winds. If its me, i get on the radio and ask him what the hell he thinks he's doing. But I assume you thought he would back taxi and not take off.

I don't think the OP knows specifically who was in the plane and his rating status. I think he's assuming it's a student because of the repeat takeoff/landings. But for all he knows it could be student + instructor or someone getting a BFR.

[Pete M]

I agree, but I'd be surprised if there was a cfi on board. You don't teach a student to go full retard:)

[toto]

9 hours ago, 201er said:

Now think hard and be honest with yourself what you would have done if you weren’t shutting down but rather #3 for takeoff between these two? Would you back taxi full length or end up taking off using 4/4?

In this scenario, I would let them both depart 3 and then I’d taxi full length for departure 21.

If the 172 pilot was indeed a student, it would have been a good time to use the “student pilot” phraseology on his radio calls. 

 

[jaylw314]

4 minutes ago, toto said:

In this scenario, I would let them both depart 3 and then I’d taxi full length for departure 21.

If the 172 pilot was indeed a student, it would have been a good time to use the “student pilot” phraseology on his radio calls. 

 

I think that's intended for the initial callup to ATC.  On other frequencies, it can attract a lot of unsolicited advice and comments, as well as plenty of indifference...

[toto]

6 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

I think that's intended for the initial callup to ATC.  On other frequencies, it can attract a lot of unsolicited advice and comments, as well as plenty of indifference...

It is intended for the initial contact with ATC, but in this particular case I think the student could have used some unsolicited advice. If I heard a “student pilot, taxi for takeoff runway 3,” I would almost certainly get on the radio to point out the 20G30 tailwind and suggest that he back taxi 21.

[skydvrboy]

This wasn't an old green and white 172 by any chance was it?  I had basically the same thing happen to me at 1KS just 25nm southeast of there recently.  I departed into a 20 kt headwind on 18 announcing that I'd be going north.  As I leave, the 172 pilot departs downwind 36 also announcing he's heading north.  So now the guy is about 2 miles ahead of me and climbing in a slow high wing aircraft while I'm above and catching him fast in a low wing craft.  Seemed like a perfect setup for a midair.  Fortunately he stayed really low, looked to be only 100 - 200 feet off the deck.

[hubcap]

On 12/20/2021 at 10:57 AM, 201er said:

I don't think the OP knows specifically who was in the plane and his rating status. I think he's assuming it's a student because of the repeat takeoff/landings. But for all he knows it could be student + instructor or someone getting a BFR.

I do not KNOW the 172 pilot was a student, I assumed it because of the plane he was flying, his radio calls, and the way he flew. In fact he could have been a low time or rusty private pilot. 

[hubcap]

On 12/20/2021 at 10:49 PM, skydvrboy said:

This wasn't an old green and white 172 by any chance was it?  I had basically the same thing happen to me at 1KS just 25nm southeast of there recently.  I departed into a 20 kt headwind on 18 announcing that I'd be going north.  As I leave, the 172 pilot departs downwind 36 also announcing he's heading north.  So now the guy is about 2 miles ahead of me and climbing in a slow high wing aircraft while I'm above and catching him fast in a low wing craft.  Seemed like a perfect setup for a midair.  Fortunately he stayed really low, looked to be only 100 - 200 feet off the deck.

The 172 showed some age, and it looked like a greenish blue? Perhaps a trainer out of one of those small rural airports in that part of the country?