TKS and IFR people. What is your procedure?

[Igor_U]

On 12/25/2021 at 8:30 AM, cliffy said:

  The 737 (IIRC) had 4X6 lumber bolted to the LEs of the tail feathers and flown that way to simulate extreme ice accumulation and it didn't affect the flight qualities so no ice protection needed. 

 

I would be surprised but I really don't know how it was done in a bad old days. We are doing much better flight testing it today with artificial ice shapes made out of composite and foam of various irregular shape closely matching real ice. Six by four wood certainly is not good representative...  

[cliffy]

We're talking half a century ago for testing.

[glenn reynolds]

I have a couple of comments to add to the excellent advice given already given

always pre prime before you need it. So prior to entering visible moisture but while flying I start a ten minute timer and turn the TKS system on low. If I’m not wet out in ten minutes then we are a no go for icing conditions. 
I alternate which tks pump I’m using every single time I switch on the Tks system so I know the pumps are both working 

I almost always tanker or carry replacement fluid in the baggage compartment. One gallon for three hour or less flights and five gallons for longer flights. I don’t want to be skimping with tks usage because I’m worried about not having enough. I’ve seen the price as high as $80 a gallon when flying cross country

i carry a two gallon plastic garden pressure sprayer  which I use to device on the ramp with using my own tks fluid   I’ve been quoted thousands of dollars to get a Comercial deice especially in Canada where deice is done for airliners   Just be descrete and get it done quickly and with out talking about it  some airports only want deice done at special deice fluid recovery pads which is how we get to a thousand dollar deice service  

I have had a tks system failure while airborne  a fitting let go. The airplane had ice very fast  it is really important to fly a flight plane with an icing out  in this case I was at 12,000 feet  I declared an emergency request lower and deviations left and right to avoid visible moisture  while I was inside class b airspace the controller gave me exactly what I asked for and I was able to descend through the ice to a warmer altitude  the plane will always go down!
For this reason I always file for as high an altitude as possible as early as I can for just this reason  .  Dress warm as my ovation cabin heat stops working at minus thirty but I also don’t get ice either  

I hold altitude longer above ice so that ATC doesn’t bring me down into an ice layer and then motor me sixty miles to the airport  this is common and I’ve had some tough radio exchanges with approach on this issue  

if you have not already changed your wing landing lights to led then do so before you fly in known ice  my led landing lights are the only place I can easily so how much ice the tks system is dealing with    I have been flying along fine for an hour with no ice build up and intermittent tks to keep it that way  as I approached a blacker uglier bit of weather I turn on tks and within two minutes the light covers had more than an inch of ice.  The tks system was working and the plane was fine but these conditions are very dangerous   I would not have known if I had incandescent lights which generate enough heat to keep ice off  I descended to warmer air and life was good  

the Faa has an excellent library on icing read it  

learn how  freezing rain is charted and do not fly when it’s forcast it can overwhelm a tks system  sld or super cooled liquid drops 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2021 by glenn reynolds

[exM20K]

10 hours ago, glenn reynolds said:

I have had a tks system failure while airborne  a fitting let go

Ditto.  One of the fittings in the tail let go in my 231.  Even in the factory FIKI installations, they really don't give you a service loop in the tubes between proportioning valves and panels.  I've no idea why, but it is a big PITA.  Other failures over 25 years of operating a TKS equipped plane:

1. Windshield pump seized. I learned then to run it at least monthly. (231)
2. Tube let go in the belly. (231)
3. cowl plug tether slipped between spinner and cowl, landed on copper TKS sprayer, and snapped it. (231)
4. None (Various DA42's)
5. ruined a 30 gallon drum by using a cast iron rotary pump, which promptly corroded and contaminated the fluid.  If using a drum pump, be certain it is for corrosive materials. (TN)
6. Suspected frozen line or panel membrane in flight.  System would not wet at all at FL200, but worked fine on the ground (TN)
7. Fluid misting in avionics bay.  Traced this to a "P trap" type of sag in the fill tube which was trapping fluid pretty high in the tube.  Suspect at climb pitch, low-pressure area in tail was sucking fluid out through the little weep hole at the top of the fill inlet.  Tie-wrapped fill tube to remove sag and now blow into fill tube after every fill till i hear air coming out of the drain. (TN)

TKS Successes

1. I'm able to use the plane year round for long XC missions
2. struck a bird with the right wing in the pattern.  No damage, and running the system served well to clean out the bird guts and pre-digested grass.

My plane is 8-10 knots slower than book.  On balance, all of this nets down to a huge boost in capability for the Mooney, and I'd not be interested in a non-deiced plane again.

 

-dan

[GeeBee]

On 12/25/2021 at 11:30 AM, cliffy said:

Tip of the hat!   Basically correct  The 737 (IIRC) had 4X6 lumber bolted to the LEs of the tail feathers and flown that way to simulate extreme ice accumulation and it didn't affect the flight qualities so no ice protection needed. 

You want extra points?   Why were the reversers on 737-200s angled rotationally on deployment in relation to the ground ?

The original 737 also lacked the bleed capacity to de-ice the tail and wings, and rather than go al-la DC-9 with a timer system, the airplane was designed without. However, as you may also remember, the 737 has the largest "enroute icing" performance correction of almost any passenger jet flying.  I can remember a few times on the -200 of not being able to complete a mission because the airplane was too heavy to land even at a very light weight.

[cliffy]

My distain for icing in light aircraft was brought about by my experiences in Navajos and the 737. I've carried more ice on those than any others

I've only had a couple experiences with icing on a Mooney (less than 1/4 in) but it did slow WAY down with that. 

Icing is always a crap shoot   Predictability and forecast is not a factor to count on.

So again Why were the reversers on the -100 737 vertical and the -200 angled ?    :-)

[GeeBee]

Because it would lift the mains, also it was easy to drag a bucket.

 

[carusoam]

You guys are good!

But, lend me a hand…

How do I recognize a vertical vs angled reverse thruster?

Is it obvious to the casual observer?

Or Do they need to be deployed for me notice?

 

When my Mooney gets it’s turbine upgrade… is it’s reverse thrust, just the prop blades rotating past being flat?

Does that cause a don’t push that knob too far in, or pull the prop sooo far back, condition?
 

It would be nice to be stopped at the halfway point of the 2k’ runway… at max gross…

Thanks!

Theoretically speaking only, of course!

-a-

[r0ckst4r]

Excellent information.  Thank you everyone.  A related question.  Do you always operate your prop and pitot heat at the same time as your TKS?  Some have advocated for pitot heat anytime you are in a cloud regardless of outside air temp.  I believe commercial airlines have pitot heat on all the time regardless of flying conditions although I'm sure our systems are not designed for this.

[aviatoreb]

19 hours ago, carusoam said:

You guys are good!

But, lend me a hand…

How do I recognize a vertical vs angled reverse thruster?

Is it obvious to the casual observer?

Or Do they need to be deployed for me notice?

 

When my Mooney gets it’s turbine upgrade… is it’s reverse thrust, just the prop blades rotating past being flat?

Does that cause a don’t push that knob too far in, or pull the prop sooo far back, condition?
 

It would be nice to be stopped at the halfway point of the 2k’ runway… at max gross…

Thanks!

Theoretically speaking only, of course!

-a-

Is there an engineering reason a piston engine cannot have a beta prop?

[carusoam]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

Is there an engineering reason a piston engine cannot have a beta prop?

Since we know that the Rocket and Missile were both born with a prop that goes into the full feather position…

What would it take to keep going into Beta?

probably involves more weight and cost… or somebody to ask the question out loud…   Let’s ask @Cody Stallings (theoretical prop question)

 

While we are at it…. Why don’t we put a brake system on the nose wheel…?

Wtih nose wheel braking… we could start the stopping process earlier, while the mains are still light with excess lift…

 

I could be the first Mooniac to ever scrub the rubber off the nose tire… 

 

Best regards,

-a-

[cliffy]

727s had nose wheel brakes on some specific applications. 

Strength of the nose gear is the limiting feature  Weight is also. 

A proportioning valve (like cars have) might be a solution to balance braking action between mains and nose.  .

Braking affects tire slide Any braking friction is subtracted from tire turning slide so nose wheel steering might be affected. Especially in wet conditions.

Correct speed control upon landing will have more of a safety affect than any nose wheel brakes could. 

Right now we can "get in" shorter than we can "get out" in distance (in most instances)  if the airplane is flown correctly. 

Be honest  What is  YOUR over the fence speed?  :-)

How many times do we see Mooney drivers porpising down the runway, eating up landing distance, by being too fast over the fence. 

50% of the time maybe? 

Reversing prop?  The entire engine mount structure needs to be designed for reverse loads  The engine needs to be designed to accept reverse loads on the crankshaft  How much do you want to spend for what gain in performance? 

Just random thoughts

[Cody Stallings]

On 12/30/2021 at 6:38 PM, aviatoreb said:

Is there an engineering reason a piston engine cannot have a beta prop?

Believe it or not there actually is a few reversing recipes out there.

There are some P-Barons that have Hartzell props with a full beta system just like a PT6 prop would have. 
Not sure if all the details with Is needed on the engine to make it all work. The props are the older clamp style propellers that are heavier than there aluminum replacements.

 

[aviatoreb]

27 minutes ago, Cody Stallings said:

Believe it or not there actually is a few reversing recipes out there.

There are some P-Barons that have Hartzell props with a full beta system just like a PT6 prop would have. 
Not sure if all the details with Is needed on the engine to make it all work. The props are the older clamp style propellers that are heavier than there aluminum replacements.

 

Huh!  Cool! I wonder why there aren't more?

[Nippernaper]

Mt sells reversing props for seaplane applications.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[aviatoreb]

8 minutes ago, Nippernaper said:

Mt sells reversing props for seaplane applications.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Fun!

Who's going to be the first Mooney spacer to get a field approval and put one of those on their Mooney!

[cliffy]

2 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Fun!

Who's going to be the first Mooney spacer to get a field approval and put one of those on their Mooney!

Why?

[aviatoreb]

31 minutes ago, cliffy said:

Why?

Cuz its there.

[zehutiman]

Can I revive this thread?  I'm looking to buy a Mooney and wondered what the difference was between Mooney's with TKS (and non-FIKI) and any airplane that's certified FIKI.  Dual pumps?  Wing Illumination lights?

[Fly Boomer]

16 minutes ago, zehutiman said:

difference was between Mooney's with TKS (and non-FIKI) and any airplane that's certified FIKI.

Mostly dual pumps and a backup electrical source to provide power in case the primary system fails.  "No Hazard" (non-FIKI) systems have ice lights.  While FIKI is an abbreviation for Flight Into Known Icing, if I had it, it wouldn't make me more likely to hang around in ice than my non-FIKI system.

[CAV Ice]

34 minutes ago, zehutiman said:

Can I revive this thread?  I'm looking to buy a Mooney and wondered what the difference was between Mooney's with TKS (and non-FIKI) and any airplane that's certified FIKI.  Dual pumps?  Wing Illumination lights?

FIKI: dual main pumps, dual windshield pumps, additional pressure switches (3 total), different proportioning units due different panel sizes. Certified in 1995.

Ho-hazard: one main pump, one windshield pump, two pressure switches, different leading edge panels. Certified in 1988.

[M20F]

Love the function of TKS and have used a lot in a SR22. 
 
Hate the mess TKS makes. 

[Ragsf15e]

4 hours ago, M20F said:

Love the function of TKS and have used a lot in a SR22. 
 
Hate the mess TKS makes. 

Ha!  There’s a whole thread on B-talk about how much of a PIA boots are to strip / clean / care for.  Someone on there said they love the TKS because it’s easy to use and keep in good shape.  We all just need heated wings!

[PeteMc]

10 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

We all just need heated wings!

George Braly (GAMI) was actually working on that for GA planes years ago.  I wonder what ever happened to that project.

[Ragsf15e]

18 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

George Braly (GAMI) was actually working on that for GA planes years ago.  I wonder what ever happened to that project.

Either heated wings or “nonstick” paint. I’d love to see more deice solutions, but doubt it will happen.  GA just isn’t big enough.

There is a cool (experimental/non fiki) deice system that electrically heats the leading edges on a cycle.  It requires a separate alternator.  I’ve seen it on an RV.