How much life are you getting out of your battery(ies)?

[Mooney_Allegro]

I just had both Concorde RG24-15 (24V) batteries replaced in May due to failing the capacity check.  They were 6 or 7 years old and survived many summers in 110+ degree temperatures sitting in the hangar in Las Vegas.  When the aircraft is not flying, the batteries are connected to Battery Minders, one for each battery.  I think the batteries were manufactured in 2014, but installed in the 2015 Mooney if I remember correctly, making the batteries 7 years old.  The batteries are not cheap at $795/battery.  

[Greg Ellis]

14 hours ago, M20Doc said:

I wonder how many of these Concorde miracle batteries are getting a real capacity test during annual inspection?  In my experience 5 years is a typical life expectancy.

Clarence

I wonder as well about these long lasting miracle batteries.  A number of years ago, I was flying at night, almost home when I lost the generator (I now have an alternator).  I thought that I would be okay since I was only about 10-15 minutes from my home base.  I shed as much load as I could for being at night, and landed in the dark (no radios, no nothing) not by choice.  Fortunately the tower was closed at my airport because it was after hours so I did not have to worry about light gun signals.  

I mention this because the battery power lasted less than 10 minutes.  This was on a battery that fired up the engine with absolutely no hesitation each and every time.  It was also a battery that was kept on a battery minder (one of the earlier ones).  So, if you have a battery that you are proud of that has been "going strong" for ever, get a load capacity check on it.  Just because it fires up the engine does not mean it will last when you really need it.

[Austintatious]

17 hours ago, aggiepilot04 said:

Would love to get some of that 60lbs back, but I'm pretty sure that I'd run into CG issues if my batteries weighed less. Maybe Lithium Iron + MT prop?

Yea that would be nice... That would probably get another 100 lbs of useful load.

[N201MKTurbo]

10 hours ago, tls pilot said:

Years ago, I asked Bill Wheat about voltage

He indicated 29.0 volts is not out of range. Same in the manual. Your 28.8 seems ok

This number will vary with temperature.

Adjusting the voltage regulator is not complicated in a Bravo

All the voltage vs temperature curves are in the battery manual. No use asking the airframe guys, ask the battery guys.

[N201MKTurbo]

I always used Concord batteries. In 2017 I won a Gill battery at the SW Maintenance Symposium. I put it in the Mooney and it has been working great ever since. I'll let you know how it goes. It is their latest and greatest AGM battery.

[aggiepilot04]

I wonder as well about these long lasting miracle batteries.  A number of years ago, I was flying at night, almost home when I lost the generator (I now have an alternator).  I thought that I would be okay since I was only about 10-15 minutes from my home base.  I shed as much load as I could for being at night, and landed in the dark (no radios, no nothing) not by choice.  Fortunately the tower was closed at my airport because it was after hours so I did not have to worry about light gun signals.  
I mention this because the battery power lasted less than 10 minutes.  This was on a battery that fired up the engine with absolutely no hesitation each and every time.  It was also a battery that was kept on a battery minder (one of the earlier ones).  So, if you have a battery that you are proud of that has been "going strong" for ever, get a load capacity check on it.  Just because it fires up the engine does not mean it will last when you really need it.

I'd have to lose the alternator, the standby alternator, and then deplete 2 batteries. Combine that with the fact that the BatteryMinder is checking the health of my batteries (in theory) between each flight, and I feel ok about pushing one to the end. Like others have mentioned, there's no guarantee that it lasts even one year...so I should be ready to lose 1 either way. Night doesn't worry me as much as losing power in the clouds (no vac).

That said, I'd love to hear counterarguments if you think I'm taking undue risk here. I'd be happy to learn and change my mind if necessary.

I'm also not sure if Maxwell runs load/capacity tests at annual...logbook just says "serviced batteries". I'll have to ask.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JWJR]

https://batteryminder1.com/

Hmmm …they say you should get more than five years of safe performance from your aircraft battery. Hmmmm …Did they check with the in house legal team for this advertisement I wonder. On another note anyone have experience with using lithium batteries in experimental aircraft and what kind of service life they are getting?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[A64Pilot]

LFP’s are too new to know, but come with several issues, one of which is once fully charged they need to be disconnected from the charge source, this is difficult to do. Usually quoted to have a 1500 cycle life, but we don’t really cycle a battery

Some of course like the motorcycle LFP’s don’t, and I assume just accept a much shorter life.

Lead acid is old tech, problems solved decades ago, extremely tolerant of abuse and relatively inexpensive, and meets the needs.

For deep cycle large banks use, LFP’s have enormous advantages,not so much for smaller starter batteries,lightweight is about it there and not every installation can use the lighter weight. many would require ballast if you removed a lot of battery weight.

Many, many people in the Cruising boat world have gone LFP. and need pretty complex systems to keep them healthy, but the advantages are real and many who can afford it think they are worth it.

Edited October 27, 2021 by A64Pilot

[Guest]

Strangely the Mooney inspection check list does not mention capacity testing, however the Concorde battery manual calls for it.  If you fly IFR in an all electric airplane, battery health could be life and death.

Clarence

[PT20J]

I’ve noticed that most people claiming fantastic battery life only replace them when they won't crank the starter. They likely would have failed a capacity test years before. Cold cranking amps are different than capacity. 

Skip

[PT20J]

Car batteries are more robust and 6 -7 years is a good run for them. I recently had my 6 year old Subaru battery tested with whatever quick tester the auto shop uses and they said it was 90% new (whatever that means). It still started fine. Then, I left the door ajar and the interior lights ran it flatter than a pancake in less than an hour.

Lessons learned:

1. It may crank, but an old battery may not run your avionics very long.

2 . There is no substitute for a real capacity test that takes an hour or more and then requires recharging. Several hour process all together.

3. Just replacing the battery every 5 years might be a good option if you depend on it IFR.

Skip

[Brent]

On 10/26/2021 at 3:52 PM, M20Doc said:

I wonder how many of these Concorde miracle batteries are getting a real capacity test during annual inspection?  In my experience 5 years is a typical life expectancy.

Clarence

I just had a Concorde RG-35Xc "fail" a load test today during the annual inspection. First I don't know what the load specs are, so hard to know what "fail" means until I talk to someone tomorrow. The battery was installed in December 2017 and has been hangared and on a battery minder ever since. However, the airplane has been sitting in an avionics shop hangar for ten weeks not on a charger, so that probably didn't help any. This is not my usual shop for annuals, either, so I was a little annoyed with the battery thing, which is why I came to Mooneyspace tonight. But I'm not going to argue this one. I'll just roll with a new battery and see what I get. I will say I thought I was getting a little less crank, but I never came close to not starting.   

[JWJR]

It’s always best to be as knowledgeable as possible when dealing with those that maintain your plane(great reason to utilize Mooney space for all the knowledge and experience here).I learn more every day. Here is a video on capacity testing from Concorde.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Will.iam]

So could you turn on all your avionics on the ground and if they run for an hour before shutting off wouldn’t that pass as the capacity check?

[A64Pilot]

If a Concorde fails the Cap check there is a recovery procedure in the manual that often will recover capacity, especially if it’s been deeply discharged and left at a low charge for awhile.

Basically it’s an equalization charge which does to some extent remove some sulphation, batteries die from sulphation, keeping a battery fully charged always pretty much stops sulphation, that’s why minders work, but they have be at float voltage, if left at charge voltage they will cook a battery eventually.

‘If a Concorde fails a cap check, especially if it was at an avionics shop, follow the procedure in the manual, I’d be surprised if it didn’t recover enough capacity to pass.

Edited October 28, 2021 by A64Pilot

[A64Pilot]

6 hours ago, Will.iam said:

So could you turn on all your avionics on the ground and if they run for an hour before shutting off wouldn’t that pass as the capacity check?

Isn’t running on lower voltage bad for avionics? Something makes me think low voltage means greater heat?

That would in reality work, but a battery is rated in amp hours and your looking for rated capacity, which may or may not be one hour of avionics.

But then there is the counter argument of I don’t care what it is in amp hours one hour of avionics is more than enough for me.

As an A&P I wouldn’t count it as a Cap check, but as a pilot I can see as how it’s all that matters, or said another way I wouldn't do it to someone else’s airplane.

I think as a pilot I’d see if the amp load of the landing light is about the same as my avionics, and I’d run one of those instead, if it’s half as much, then run it for2 hours etc.

250W bulb is 20 amps at 12V

Edited October 28, 2021 by A64Pilot

[Hank]

2 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

I think as a pilot I’d see if the amp load of the landing light is about the same as my avionics, and I’d run one of those instead, if it’s half as much, then run it for2 hours etc.

250W bulb is 20 amps at 12V

You must not have installed an LED landing light yet. Turning on the GE bulb used to make my ammeter needle wiggle; I put in a Whelen Parmetheus in April 2014, and it's only been turned off twice since then--halfway through a pitot static check, and during one annual. The load it puts on the system is negligible. 

[rbridges]

My plane came with a Gill battery when I first bought it.  I replaced it after a year or so.  It appeared to be 4 years old based on the date written on the battery.  I installed a Concorde which gave me 6 years.  Could have gone longer but I could tell the prop was turning slower when starting.  Replaced it with another Concorde.  Since I have a 14v system, I use a car float charger.  It works great.

Edited October 28, 2021 by rbridges

[DXB]

15 hours ago, Brent said:

I just had a Concorde RG-35Xc "fail" a load test today during the annual inspection. First I don't know what the load specs are, so hard to know what "fail" means until I talk to someone tomorrow. The battery was installed in December 2017 and has been hangared and on a battery minder ever since. However, the airplane has been sitting in an avionics shop hangar for ten weeks not on a charger, so that probably didn't help any. This is not my usual shop for annuals, either, so I was a little annoyed with the battery thing, which is why I came to Mooneyspace tonight. But I'm not going to argue this one. I'll just roll with a new battery and see what I get. I will say I thought I was getting a little less crank, but I never came close to not starting.   

Load tests measure cold cranking amps - what is measured by a typical cheap automotive battery tester - basically current delivered in a short burst upon initial demand, not current delivered over a period of time (capacity).  The CCA spec for our batteries are lower than for an automotive battery however.    But if CCA is even mildly below spec for that particular battery, then it is in really bad shape and would dismally fail capacity testing.  

On researching further, a proper battery capacity tester seems to cost at least 2.5 amu, and I have as yet to work with a shop that had invested in one.  Then there are makeshift versions out there of dubious accuracy, and I am not especially handy at putting such things together.  For the cost of a real capacity tester, I could buy about 8 Concorde batteries for my bird.  I think maybe keeping mine on a battery minder at all times and automatically replacing every 5 years or so may be a good compromise position.   

Edited October 28, 2021 by DXB

[EricJ]

6 hours ago, DXB said:

On researching further, a proper battery capacity tester seems to cost at least 2.5 amu, and I have as yet to work with a shop that had invested in one.  Then there are makeshift versions out there of dubious accuracy, and I am not especially handy at putting such things together.  For the cost of a real capacity tester, I could buy about 8 Concorde batteries for my bird.  I think maybe keeping mine on a battery minder at all times and automatically replacing every 5 years or so may be a good compromise position.   

From what I've been able to sort out 2.5 amu is a cheap model of capacity tester (for an actual capacity tester), so, yeah, most shops don't have them, and if they do they're gonna charge (ahem) a significant amount to perform a capacity check in order to pay for the device.   I think this is why most people don't get capacity checks done and just change the battery on condition.

 

[Bartman]

Concorde 12 volt in my J has lasted 10 years, don’t know the model number.  Beginning February last year during engine rebuild I put it on a cheap battery tender Jr intermittently for about 6 months and again intermittently last winter. I am quite certain it would not pass a load test but it is still going strong as far as cranking power. 

[Ragsf15e]

21 hours ago, PT20J said:

Car batteries are more robust and 6 -7 years is a good run for them. I recently had my 6 year old Subaru battery tested with whatever quick tester the auto shop uses and they said it was 90% new (whatever that means). It still started fine. Then, I left the door ajar and the interior lights ran it flatter than a pancake in less than an hour.

Lessons learned:

1. It may crank, but an old battery may not run your avionics very long.

2 . There is no substitute for a real capacity test that takes an hour or more and then requires recharging. Several hour process all together.

3. Just replacing the battery every 5 years might be a good option if you depend on it IFR.

Skip

While I agree with you and @M20Doc that we should try to ensure healthy batteries in our airplanes if we fly at night or in the clouds, I’m less concerned about the aircraft battery and more concerned about the eADI backup batteries.  My thought is that an alternator failure is certainly possible, but so are a host of other failures that can possibly shut off power from the battery as well (master switch failure, solenoid, battery wire disconnected at any of the 5-7 connections, etc). 

Personally, I plan on a total electrical failure and still be able to aviate, navigate, communicate.  So my plan is - 1.  G5 batteries are both tested regularly.  2. IPAD & iPhone have FF maps and they are charged.  3. I have a handheld radio with spare batteries.

I would also like (but don’t currently have) a portable adsb device with ahrs for the FF.

Of course I’d like my ships battery to work for 30 minutes plus, but I’m not counting on it.

[Marauder]

While I agree with you and [mention=12030]M20Doc[/mention] that we should try to ensure healthy batteries in our airplanes if we fly at night or in the clouds, I’m less concerned about the aircraft battery and more concerned about the eADI backup batteries.  My thought is that an alternator failure is certainly possible, but so are a host of other failures that can possibly shut off power from the battery as well (master switch failure, solenoid, battery wire disconnected at any of the 5-7 connections, etc). 
Personally, I plan on a total electrical failure and still be able to aviate, navigate, communicate.  So my plan is - 1.  G5 batteries are both tested regularly.  2. IPAD & iPhone have FF maps and they are charged.  3. I have a handheld radio with spare batteries.
I would also like (but don’t currently have) a portable adsb device with ahrs for the FF.

Of course I’d like my ships battery to work for 30 minutes plus, but I’m not counting on it.

I built out a load spreadsheet when I converted my avionics to all glass. I then put those colored rings on the breakers to know which breakers can stay in and which need to be pulled. I’m with Rags on the approach. I have lost an alternator in flight and your comfort level goes up significantly when you know what power you’ll need and where you get it from (i.e. the backup batteries in the avionics) and how you will need to manage it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[A64Pilot]

21 hours ago, Hank said:

You must not have installed an LED landing light yet. Turning on the GE bulb used to make my ammeter needle wiggle; I put in a Whelen Parmetheus in April 2014, and it's only been turned off twice since then--halfway through a pitot static check, and during one annual. The load it puts on the system is negligible. 

I do have an LED, but happen to have several old bulbs, even car headlights will work if your a 12V airplane.

A few ft of wire and a couple of alligator clips and Voila, you have a load bank, just connect to battery directly.

‘I’m sorry if I sounded like I indicated to use installed landing light, I feel that may melt the cover if left on too long with no airflow.

Attached picture is of a load bank used for aircraft certification as we had to load the starter / generator to 100% and show it didn’t overheat, all it is is a bunch of 600W landing lights, they were in a tank filled with water as that’s a lot of heat.

Edited October 29, 2021 by A64Pilot

[DXB]

14 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Personally, I plan on a total electrical failure and still be able to aviate, navigate, communicate.  So my plan is - 1.  G5 batteries are both tested regularly.  2. IPAD & iPhone have FF maps and they are charged.  3. I have a handheld radio with spare batteries.

I would also like (but don’t currently have) a portable adsb device with ahrs for the FF.

I agree and have all of the above, including a Stratus to drive FF - terrific battery life on that. I would add a connector for your handheld radio to ships antenna. Ultimate peace of mind however would be knowing your panel avionics will stay intact enough  for 30+ minutes so you can shoot an RNAV approach if needed.  To do that, you need your panel GPS, which doesn't have backup battery.  Unfortunately your glass PFD etc is also going to draw down that same battery at the same time until voltage drops quite a bit and switches to backup - thus competing with a crucial component needed to get out of trouble if there's widespread IMC.  I think there's no real substitute for obsessing about your ships battery life if you want the full freedom that the IR provides in our single battery, single alternator planes.