SBA ATC Zero

[ilovecornfields]

Asked for flight following from the tower today. Told “Unable, Santa Barbara is ATC Zero. Try LA Center on departure.”

Took off and had a very brief conversation with LA Center.

Me: LA Center Mooney 12345 ,VFR Request

LA Center: Mooney 12345, unable.

Me:

That was fun. I was eventually able to find another sector that was willing to give me flight following.

For the way home tomorrow, if they’re still ATC Zero is it better to file IFR or just not get flight following?

[PilotX]

In theory you would be better filing IFR. It sounds like you might have better luck just getting out and picking up flight following later. 

[Unit74]

File IFR.  You can always cancel in the air and ask for FF since you ar already on a discreet  code. 

[hubcap]

I would rather file IFR than get VFR flight following. That’s just a personal preference but I have been turned down fo VFR flight following. You won’t get turned down if you file IFR.

Edited September 16, 2021 by hubcap

[thinwing]

ive never heard the phrase "ATC Zero"...what does that mean?Radar down,no controllers avalible,.....

[N201MKTurbo]

Every time I file from KSBA to KCHD they send me over PMD. If it is VMC I’ll get flight following so I can go direct. It saves about 10 min of flying.

[philip_g]

1 hour ago, thinwing said:

ive never heard the phrase "ATC Zero"...what does that mean?Radar down,no controllers avalible,.....

It means the facility is unable to provide any services for whatever the reason is. Could be covid and staffing. Could be a power and backup power outage. Could be computers 

[ilovecornfields]

As a follow up they were back the next day when I flew back (IFR). I’m sure LA Center was sad to give that airspace back.

[PT20J]

I never heard that one either. It’s not in the Pilot-Controller Glossary. I had to resort to Wikipedia. 

 

[ilovecornfields]

Sorry, I wasn’t trying to be obscure. There have been several high profile ATC Zero events in the last 15 months.

Opposing Bases (ATC podcast) has had some interesting discussions on it as well. Apparently it’s not very easy to control someone else’s airspace.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2020/march/23/training-tip-when-atc-goes-to-zero
 

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2020/november/25/atc-zero-events-in-resurgence
 

https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/air-safety-institute/safety-notices/safety-notice-atc-zero-events

Edited September 18, 2021 by ilovecornfields

[Shadrach]

On 9/9/2021 at 8:42 AM, Unit74 said:

File IFR.  You can always cancel in the air and ask for FF since you ar already on a discreet  code. 

If a facility is ATC Zero, it is not providing separation services. Filing IFR is not going to change that. No IFR nor VFR services will be provided. Weather permitting the sector can be used for VFR flight. IFR flights my be rerouted to ensure continued service.

[jaylw314]

Does the class E turn into class G airspace in the area?

[ilovecornfields]

45 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

If a facility is ATC Zero, it is not providing separation services. Filing IFR is not going to change that. No IFR nor VFR services will be provided. Weather permitting the sector can be used for VFR flight. IFR flights my be rerouted to ensure continued service.

I’m not sure that’s entirely true. I know in some cases they route people around the airspace controlled by the facility that is ATC Zero but I think in other cases other facilities take over. In the example in Opposing Bases and I think in the SBA example other facilities took over. LA Center was providing radar services in SBA’s airspace, just not flight following.

[A64Pilot]

Failure to get flight following in a busy environment is about as common as being told to remain outside of the Class B.

From a safety perspective you should always file IFR, I rarely do anymore myself, but should.

Edited September 18, 2021 by A64Pilot

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, ilovecornfields said:

I’m not sure that’s entirely true. I know in some cases they route people around the airspace controlled by the facility that is ATC Zero but I think in other cases other facilities take over. In the example in Opposing Bases and I think in the SBA example other facilities took over. LA Center was providing radar services in SBA’s airspace, just not flight following.

I copied the definitions below straight from FAA Order JO1900.47F

There is an Operational Contingency Level (OCL) for partial operations but it’s called ATC-Limited. Perhaps there are exceptions. I have a man on the inside that I will ask.

5. ATC-Limited – OCL declared when a combined Tower/TRACON or multi-area facility is unable to safely provide published air traffic services from one or more Options/Areas while others remain in operation.

6. ATC-Zero – OCL declared when it is determined that the facility is unable to safely provide published air traffic services, or traffic flow management in the case of the ATCSCC.

[ilovecornfields]

25 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I copied the definitions below straight from FAA Order JO1900.47F

There is an Operational Contingency Level (OCL) for partial operations but it’s called ATC-Limited. Perhaps there are exceptions. I have a man on the inside that I will ask.

5. ATC-Limited – OCL declared when a combined Tower/TRACON or multi-area facility is unable to safely provide published air traffic services from one or more Options/Areas while others remain in operation.

6. ATC-Zero – OCL declared when it is determined that the facility is unable to safely provide published air traffic services, or traffic flow management in the case of the ATCSCC.

I don’t think we’re disagreeing. From what you posted above “the facility is unable to safely provide published air traffic services” SBA TRACON and LA Center are two different facilities. When SBA went ATC Zero, LA Center (a different facility) took over some of their services. I don’t think everything just automatically becomes Class G. Maybe @kortopates knows the answer. I haven’t been able to stump him yet, but it doesn’t deter me from trying.

Edited September 18, 2021 by ilovecornfields

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, ilovecornfields said:

I don’t think we’re disagreeing. From what you posted above “the facility is unable to safely provide published air traffic services” SBA TRACON and LA Center are two different facilities. When SBA went ATC Zero, LA Center (a different facility) took over some of their services. I don’t think everything just automatically becomes Class G. Maybe @kortopates knows the answer. I haven’t been able to stump him yet, but it doesn’t deter me from trying.

We’re not disagreeing. I had not really considered that a facility could be ATC Zero but control of that facility’s airspace might be handed off to another nearby facility.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Shadrach

[PT20J]

The way a controller explained it to me once is that the ARTCCs own all the airspace and turn over operation control of parts of it to TRACONs. When the TRACON is not operational, control reverts to the ARTCC. This happens all the time with TRACONs associated with towers that don’t operate full time. 

I thing reverting the airspace to G would require a NOTAM.

Skip

[kortopates]

Skip nailed it, it’s impossible for another facility to take over unless the other facility has personnel trained, certified and current for that airspace - that typically only happens with a LOA that allows the other facility to take over when the main controller closes for the night and they regularly do that already.


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[philip_g]

5 hours ago, ilovecornfields said:

I don’t think we’re disagreeing. From what you posted above “the facility is unable to safely provide published air traffic services” SBA TRACON and LA Center are two different facilities. When SBA went ATC Zero, LA Center (a different facility) took over some of their services. I don’t think everything just automatically becomes Class G. Maybe @kortopates knows the answer. I haven’t been able to stump him yet, but it doesn’t deter me from trying.

Center or socal assumes the airspace but services will be limited.

Edited September 19, 2021 by philip_g

[philip_g]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

Skip nailed it, it’s impossible for another facility to take over unless the other facility has personnel trained, certified and current for that airspace - that typically only happens with a LOA that allows the other facility to take over when the main controller closes for the night and they regularly do that already.


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I doubt SBA is a 24 hour facility so either zla or socal would assume the airspace but there are differences using mosaic radar vs single source radar and the rules you can use for separation. It could be a 24, but I doubt it. 

 

Going ATC zero is a nas outage and there are contingency plans. This isn't a daily operation LOA situation. It's a completely different scenario. If a center does ATC 0 usually the plan is to run nonradar sep and tell the aircraft to contact xx center on xx freq at xx vor and the routes that must be own are in the contingency binder 

 

If a large tracon goes down, center would assume the airspace and it would be a complete shit show 

 

Anyway in this case it's a no brainier. Zla takes it 

• APCH/DEP CTL SVC PRVDD BY LOS ANGELES ARTCC (ZLA) ON FREQS 119.05/269.5 (SANTA BARBARA RCAG) WHEN SANTA BARBARA APCH CTL (SBA) CLSD.

 

Edited September 19, 2021 by philip_g

[EricJ]

6 hours ago, PT20J said:

I thing reverting the airspace to G would require a NOTAM.

Skip

...or the supplement specifying such.    Scottsdale reverts from Class D to Class G every night at 9 pm, but it's in the supplement that it does that.

[ohdub]

My experience with ATC zero - Toronto ATC with airspace bordering Cleveland Center and 2 TRACONs. When a TRACON that isn't 24 hour goes to ATC zero, Center takes over the airspace as they do on midnight shifts. They are trained and current on working the airspace. When a TRACON that is 24 hour, or the Centre itself goes ATC zero, the airspace is closed to IFR traffic as there is no one else trained and current on working the airspace.

We experienced this regularly during the first part of the pandemic, we'd regularly get notifications that a particular center would be ATC zero for several hours during the midnight shift and if we had any aircraft that would be transiting during those hours, we had to reroute them. Aircraft that were destined to the affected center would have to divert and wait for the airspace to open again.

Steve

[kortopates]

I'll share an interesting unplanned and uncommunicated ATC Zero story.

Back during the major Cedar fire disaster of 2003 in San Diego that took out over 1300 structures, a massive fire came down from the Julian into San Diego all the way to the 15 highway across the street from the Miramar SOCAL TRACON - a super TRACON that serves the SOCAL Metroplex (SAN, LAX, SNA, ONT etc) with the highest number of operations in the country. SOCAL owns the airpsace over the southland from the border to near Pt Mugu & Valley (Burbank) to the north to PSP to east  up to 12-14K with LA Center working the airspace above. When the fire came near their building the entire TRACON just went offline and evacuated quickly without even notifying LA Center. Planes were given clearance limits just outside SOCAL's airspace with hopes the TRACON would come back up along with the airspace. (Not that long ago they los complete power while testing their back up power system and went off line for a number of minutes.)  Nobody knew when that would be and after hours has passed without a word LA Center got creative. It turned out LA Center, located in Palmdale, had a controller that had recently worked SOCAL and was still current enough on SOCAL's airspace to work the SAN arriving sector. The LA Center supervisors allowed him to open that portion of airpsace to bring in arrivals. That only worked for all of about a half hour - at no fault of the controller. The controller was vectoring the traffic right through the intense smoke clouds that where very turbulent and very dense with pilots becoming fearful of their engines flaming out. After the first couple landed at Lindbergh, the pilots passed word up and LA Center quicky shut down the airspace again. Interestingly they had very little collected data during the shutdown to conduct a full postmortem. I forget details now but I recall the fire took out one of their radar sites plus they didn't have recordings with the building shutdown.