Landing gear rubber discs/OPP

[EricJ]

Just now, Will.iam said:

So I've read through this thread and what is the problem of installing the OPP donuts and when you finally put the aircraft up for sale replace the OPP donuts with ones that have a PMA or TSO part?  I guess if I was selling my plane and a buyer was held up over an OPP part being on the plane 2.5 amu's should be able to correct that, or is putting an OPP part on a plane once in it's history like a gear up landing, it always devalues the price of the plane because it had at one time an OPP part?

That's a thought:   keep the old donuts if they were serviceable (not out of spec) and provide them for a nervous buyer if needed.   Otherwise the A&P entry for installation shows airworthiness of the parts and installation, and an annual inspection record with them installed shows airworthiness of the aircraft and compliance to the TC.   

 

[Guest]

On 7/13/2021 at 9:45 PM, A64Pilot said:

You willing to make the logbook entry that you produced or participated in its manufacture IAW the FAR?

If the answer is yes, then I would consider it for a part that was either not available or really stupid expensive.

But without a logbook entry saying you produced the part, no.

Would I buy a airplane that had owner produced parts that are available from the factory? No.

How much participation do owners have in the process when having McFarlane Aviation build them a power plant control cable?

Clarence 

[N231BN]

I wish I had a picture of the Thrush shock, the pucks aren’t flat, the middle two inches or so are, but the rest of it gets thinner at an angle, Looks like a discus
Being shaped like that initially only the middle flat portion takes a load, but as they compress more and more of the puck makes contact bringing more and more elastomer into contact as the shock is compressed, this makes it very progressive. 1960’s design.
‘There has always been a lot of variation in batches too, some split early, but the ones that don’t last a long time.
Crop Duster pilots are all Engineers, if you don’t believe me ask one, one of the field Engineering things I have seen are combine springs in place of the pucks, a steel spring has no dampening and in my opinion doesn’t work as well as the elastomer puck.

Familiar?

[Alan Fox]

Any smart buyer , will see the pucks installed , to save a feww hundred dollars , then they will see the cheap tires , and cheap inner tubes , then the cheap this , and the cheap that.... and will figure out the culture of the owner as far as maintenence and skimping on maintenence , and then will move on to the next aircraft.....As far as being an A&P goes , If I cant make money on parts , Im not installing them....  Sorry , but I need to earn a living too..... 

[Hank]

57 minutes ago, Alan Fox said:

As far as being an A&P goes , If I cant make money on parts , Im not installing them....  Sorry , but I need to earn a living too..... 

I've had several A&Ps and IAs tell me to buy parts and they will install them:  full set of pucks, new oil hoses (firesleeved), electrical board behind the cabin / panel light theocratic, etc. Not all cheap parts . . .

[EricJ]

54 minutes ago, Hank said:

I've had several A&Ps and IAs tell me to buy parts and they will install them:  full set of pucks, new oil hoses (firesleeved), electrical board behind the cabin / panel light theocratic, etc. Not all cheap parts . . .

My IA is like that, too.   I think he likes not having to deal with sourcing parts or warranty issues.    If the part breaks, it's not his deal since he didn't have anything to do with it other than installation.   

 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Alan Fox said:

Any smart buyer , will see the pucks installed , to save a feww hundred dollars , then they will see the cheap tires , and cheap inner tubes , then the cheap this , and the cheap that.... and will figure out the culture of the owner as far as maintenence and skimping on maintenence , and then will move on to the next aircraft.....As far as being an A&P goes , If I cant make money on parts , Im not installing them....  Sorry , but I need to earn a living too..... 

Hey! go easy, these are poor Mooney owners known to be very frugal, not super wealthy Beechcraft owners!

Clarence

[MikeOH]

4 hours ago, Alan Fox said:

Any smart buyer , will see the pucks installed , to save a feww hundred dollars , then they will see the cheap tires , and cheap inner tubes , then the cheap this , and the cheap that.... and will figure out the culture of the owner as far as maintenence and skimping on maintenence , and then will move on to the next aircraft.....As far as being an A&P goes , If I cant make money on parts , Im not installing them....  Sorry , but I need to earn a living too..... 

Can we assume that if the part fails (that we paid you to research, buy, and mark-up), you will cover the cost of a high quality replacement AND all the labor to R&R?

[Shadrach]

On 7/15/2021 at 1:08 PM, RobertGary1 said:

You have to wonder how much the ride could be improved with a progressive hardness of the 4 donuts on each main.

 

-robert

Could easily be done.  I was sent the wrong donuts for my install. Cirrus uses a donut of identical dimensions but the rubber is much softer. I caught it after we did one side. The PN is different by one digit. Anyway, the difference in hardness was very notable with the plane off jacks. You could stagger between hard and soft to get progressive compression. Not legal but here are off the shelf parts to with which it could be done.

[Alan Fox]

11 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Can we assume that if the part fails (that we paid you to research, buy, and mark-up), you will cover the cost of a high quality replacement AND all the labor to R&R?

Yea , good luck with that one..

[Mooneymite]

14 hours ago, EricJ said:

My IA is like that, too.   I think he likes not having to deal with sourcing parts or warranty issues.    If the part breaks, it's not his deal since he didn't have anything to do with it other than installation.   

 

Absolutely!  I do a lot of work under the watchful eye of an IA.  Often researching, finding, ordering the proper part takes far longer than the actual installation.

I do not need to be a certified anything to acquire parts and my hourly labor is very inexpensive.  The A&P can do what he does best...install and sign the logbook.

[carusoam]

On 7/15/2021 at 7:24 PM, Will.iam said:

So I've read through this thread and what is the problem of installing the OPP donuts and when you finally put the aircraft up for sale replace the OPP donuts with ones that have a PMA or TSO part?  I guess if I was selling my plane and a buyer was held up over an OPP part being on the plane 2.5 amu's should be able to correct that, or is putting an OPP part on a plane once in it's history like a gear up landing, it always devalues the price of the plane because it had at one time an OPP part?

Think that through for yourself…

1) what devalues a plane…

2) can it be reversed…

3) who is the buyer…

4) does he care…

5) Everything is a concern during a PPI… if it’s the one thing it will be another…

6) for OPP… design changes are most likely out… so changing shapes, color, chemistry, or durometer… is a tough sell….

Or I would be a fan of interpenetrating networks of polymer chemistry… with a rainbow of color to ID what you have there…

So much opportunity for improvement… just slightly out of reach.

PP thoughts only…

Best regards,

-a-

[A64Pilot]

On 7/16/2021 at 2:19 PM, N231BN said:

Familiar?

Yep that’s them alright.

[A64Pilot]

To put this into perspective, I believe the AC Spruce price is $130 ea? The OPP ones are $70?

If you replace all three stacks that’s 11? I’m not sure but think I had read that number somewhere.

So Lord’s sold by AC Spruce are 1,430 for a complete stack, and OPP ones are 770?

So the total savings is 660?

They last it seems maybe 10 years? I assume maybe longer on light airplanes and less on the heavier ones?

I think mine in my J model were over 30 years old when they were replaced a few years ago, and current ones look perfect, I expect being hangered and out of sunlight they will easily go ten years, but I operate off of grass, so maybe not.

I’m having a little bit of a hard time understanding why a group that seems to think nothing of dropping tens of thousands on avionics balks on 660 on parts that last a decade or longer. If they lasted no longer than tires, I’d understand

I’m leaving the money signs off intentionally as I heard on here that may attract the spam bots.

The astonishing thing to me is it cost more per hour for the John Deere dealership to work on my lawnmower than he local A&P rate for aircraft maintenance is, call the JD dealer and ask, then compare it to your A&P hourly rate, you maybe surprised.

Edited July 17, 2021 by A64Pilot

[Guest]

It’s always an interesting subject as to what’s a fair margin on parts?  I get the impression that many of you feel no margin is the correct amount.  While that might work for the A&P who shows up to with no tools, no books and no insurance, it doesn’t for those of us who are in business and pay for for tools, manuals, insurance, employees etc.

Aircraft Spruce sells parts to anyone at virtually the same price, I buy oil filters by the case and get a few dollars off because I have an “account”. What good is an account when anyone can get one or as some here do, share the one account with others?

I find it laughable when people gripe about cost of maintenance, yet blow the wad on the newest piece of avionics or new LED everything.

Clarence

 

[MikeOH]

10 hours ago, Alan Fox said:

Yea , good luck with that one..

So, why should I pay a big mark up for you to buy the same part I can, for less, when you won't even stand behind it?  I believe in paying a fair price to a mechanic for his skill and knowledge; paying that rate for him to find and buy parts that I can, and then marking them way up...not so much.

I work with mechanics that don't mind me finding parts and, if they do source them, I have no problem with around a 15% mark up.

[MikeOH]

2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

It’s always an interesting subject as to what’s a fair margin on parts?  I get the impression that many of you feel no margin is the correct amount.  While that might work for the A&P who shows up to with no tools, no books and no insurance, it doesn’t for those of us who are in business and pay for for tools, manuals, insurance, employees etc.

Aircraft Spruce sells parts to anyone at virtually the same price, I buy oil filters by the case and get a few dollars off because I have an “account”. What good is an account when anyone can get one or as some here do, share the one account with others?

I find it laughable when people gripe about cost of maintenance, yet blow the wad on the newest piece of avionics or new LED everything.

Clarence

 

Not at all.  A 15% mark up seems fair to me.

Can't speak to others, but what I gripe about is UNFAIR charges and practices.  I don't quibble with an honest error when a mechanic underestimates a task by a bit, but I don't like paying for his education!  I would much rather pay a high hourly rate to an A&P that knows what he's doing already!  Oftentimes, I suspect it's really lower cost...and much more likely to be done right!

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Not at all.  A 15% mark up seems fair to me.

Can't speak to others, but what I gripe about is UNFAIR charges and practices.  I don't quibble with an honest error when a mechanic underestimates a task by a bit, but I don't like paying for his education!  I would much rather pay a high hourly rate to an A&P that knows what he's doing already!  Oftentimes, I suspect it's really lower cost...and much more likely to be done right!

The government here makes 13% on the job and they don’t show up to help.  
 

Clarence

[PT20J]

Different shops have different business models.

Some keep the labor rate lower by the getting a markup on parts, and these shops frequently stock common parts. There is an advantage in that they often have a part in stock. But it costs money to stock parts. These shops take a dim view of owners showing up with their own parts. 

Some shops make all their money on labor and stock zilch. They are thrilled when you show up with the necessary parts (unless you brought the wrong stuff) because it saves them the trouble of ordering it all and waiting for it to arrive.

Just find a shop that has a model that fits your desires and everyone’s happy.

Skip

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Different shops have different business models.

Some keep the labor rate lower by the getting a markup on parts, and these shops frequently stock common parts. There is an advantage in that they often have a part in stock. But it costs money to stock parts. These shops take a dim view of owners showing up with their own parts. 

Some shops make all their money on labor and stock zilch. They are thrilled when you show up with the necessary parts (unless you brought the wrong stuff) because it saves them the trouble of ordering it all and waiting for it to arrive.

Just find a shop that has a model that fits your desires and everyone’s happy.

Skip

I’ve never been able to go to my favourite restaurant and bring my own steak and potatoes which I bought at the local grocery store and only get charged for the cooking and serving.

Clarence

 

[PT20J]

Just now, M20Doc said:

I’ve never been able to go to my favourite restaurant and bring my own steak and potatoes which I bought at the local grocery store and only get charged for the cooking and serving.

Clarence

 

Years ago there was a fad in Southern CA restaurants. You would pick out your raw steak from a cold case and cook it yourself at a table-side grill. All the server brought you was drinks, a baked potato and a salad. It wasn’t cheap, either. I never understood it.

Skip

[Guest]

Just now, PT20J said:

Years ago there was a fad in Southern CA restaurants. You would pick out your raw steak from a cold case and cook it yourself at a table-side grill. All the server brought you was drinks, a baked potato and a salad. It wasn’t cheap, either. I never understood it.

Skip

I’ve been to one of those in Green Bay.  It wasn’t cheaper, in fact if you didn’t want to grill your own they’d do it for a few dollars more.  I guess you’re paying for the atmosphere.

Clarence

[tmo]

11 hours ago, M20Doc said:

The government here makes 13% on the job and they don’t show up to help.  

Here they take 23% (VAT) and then another 19% (corp. income). I dread thinking what they would charge if they actually showed up...

[Shadrach]

On 7/13/2021 at 9:23 PM, MikeOH said:

Hmm, regardless, I'm not sure I'd do biz with a company that would charge $20 shipping, per disk!!!

I mean, come on, if you want $70 per disk, just say so...don't make a lame attempt to hide it by tacking on a ridiculous 'shipping' charge!

Given what I’ve paid for small parcel service just to Canada, I think $220 for shipping from South Africa is likely cost or close as makes no difference.

[MikeOH]

58 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Given what I’ve paid for small parcel service just to Canada, I think $220 for shipping from South Africa is likely cost or close as makes no difference.

That is a fair point.