Why do more mooneys have TKS?

[Tim Jodice]

In my experience shopping for airplanes there are always more Mooneys than Bonanzas with TKS. As I write this there are exactly 69 (both are having fun today) 1980 an newer Bonanzas and Mooneys on Controller. 

2 Bonanzas have TKS and 7 Mooneys have TKS. Neither of the Bonanzas are FIKI. 5 of the Mooneys are FIKI.

It surprises me because 1 Bonanzas are more expensive new and used so the cost of the system is a smaller percentage of the overall price. 2 In my experience all Bonanzas have a better useful load than a Mooney.

Yes I know a stripped Eagle against a Pimped out new Bonanza the Mooney might win but for the most part Bonanzas have a better useful load than Mooneys. 

Any thoughts why?

[Davidv]

It's really tough to answer this question without drawing some reasonable conclusions that would mildly insult Bonanza buyers/pilots... 

However, I'd venture a guess to say that the average Mooney buyer is more of an "aviator" and possibly a professional pilot.  They usually aren't buying a Mooney because it checks every box but rather they are using it for a specific mission.  The Mooney pilots may be more sensitive to the dangers of ice or increased dispatch rate that comes with TKS.

[ArtVandelay]

I think FIKI and turbos go together, so how common are turbos on Bonanzas?

[MIm20c]

A lot of the bonanza aircraft have tip tanks which take them out of FIKI eligibility. Also IMO the bonanza wing can carry ice a little better than the Mooney. 

[thinwing]

part of the reason is that the first single engine fiki cert was done with a Mooney.Also...age is a factor...im betting you are looking at pre 1980 bonanzas vs newer Mooneys..just a guess really....

[exM20K]

As @ArtVandelaysuggests, turbo and TKS go really well together.  There is also factory support for TKS @ Mooney.  

The rusting piano hinge problem with some Bonanza and Baron airframes may also dissuade some from doing the install.

-dan

[Gagarin]

For de-icing most Bonanzas are equipped with the factory de-icing boots option. Unlike TKS, boots have unlimited use endurance and no need to refill TKS fluid. Boots are quicker on removing ice.

https://www.iceshield.com/Products/Kits

 

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by Gagarin

[Tim Jodice]

1 hour ago, thinwing said:

part of the reason is that the first single engine fiki cert was done with a Mooney.Also...age is a factor...im betting you are looking at pre 1980 bonanzas vs newer Mooneys..just a guess really....

I specifically searched 1980 and newer for both to filter out the old aircraft. It just so happens that right now even without a age filter the tks equipped aircraft are still the same. 

[exM20K]

21 minutes ago, Gagarin said:

For de-icing most Bonanzas are equipped with the factory de-icing boots option. Unlike TKS, boots have unlimited use endurance and no need to refill TKS fluid. Boots are quicker on removing ice.

https://www.iceshield.com/Products/Kits

 

 

Barons? yes, most have factory boots.  Beech has, so far as I know, never installed boots on the bonanza.  They are all field installed, generally lack the rest of a FIKI package (windshield, heated stall warning, heated tank vents if required), and are not FIKI certified.

there is no perfect system,  but having owned both, I prefer TKS.  If I exhaust the tank by droning along for 90 minutes in icing conditions, I'm doing something very wrong.

Though less of an issue with AHRS-driven glass panels, it used to be that loss of VAC = loss of AI and de-ice in a booted single.

 

There was a guy here in chicago 20-some years ago who had boots on a Rocket.  He liked it.

 

-dan

[Gagarin]

3 minutes ago, exM20K said:

Barons? yes, most have factory boots.  Beech has, so far as I know, never installed boots on the bonanza.  They are all field installed, generally lack the rest of a FIKI package (windshield, heated stall warning, heated tank vents if required), and are not FIKI certified.

there is no perfect system,  but having owned both, I prefer TKS.  If I exhaust the tank by droning along for 90 minutes in icing conditions, I'm doing something very wrong.

Though less of an issue with AHRS-driven glass panels, it used to be that loss of VAC = loss of AI and de-ice in a booted single.

 

There was a guy here in chicago 20-some years ago who had boots on a Rocket.  He liked it.

 

-dan

An option that works very well for me when going to Plum, PA is the use of de-icing coatings like https://www.amazon.com/DuPont-Teflon-Snow-Ice-Repellant/dp/B0031T82NO?th=1. 

[Tim Jodice]

1 hour ago, Gagarin said:

For de-icing most Bonanzas are equipped with the factory de-icing boots option. Unlike TKS, boots have unlimited use endurance and no need to refill TKS fluid. Boots are quicker on removing ice.

All of that is true. BUT boots suck compared to TKS. That is my experience and FEDEx.

My experience is in my 201 with a NOT approved for known icing TKS system and a booted Cessna 402.

To clarify when I say my experience I mean me im the airplane in question NOT experiencing a conversation with a friend who has a friend whose dad said......

In my 201 TKS in low keeps most ice off, when it can't keep up turn it on high and do something about it. 

The 402 with boots you have to wait for it to build then pop the boots. when all is well that works fine but freezing rain, run back you can't do anything about it and you don't know until you try to pop the boots and find out that it can't get it all off. 

yes I know most people stay on the ground if there is potential for icing but if you fly much in a cold state it is a fact of life.

In 2011 FEDEx refitted their deiced Caravan fleet with TKS. They had a booted known ice system that had boots on pretty much every forward facing surface they even booted the cargo pod. Unfortunately it was not up to the task of there schedule routes and some people died from icing.

I guarantee you they didn't put TKS on their aircraft because they thought the shiny leading edges would make people ship more packages with them. 

To have TKS installed on a Mooney today (February 2021) it costs $72,000. Think (I don't know) about how much it must cost to put it on a caravan.

[aviatoreb]

On 3/15/2021 at 5:35 PM, exM20K said:

There was a guy here in chicago 20-some years ago who had boots on a Rocket.  He liked it.

-dan

No kidding.  A booted Mooney?!  A rocket?

I wonder what regulatory mechanism was behind that?

[carusoam]

Nice to see José is still José...   

And still here!

Best regards,

-a-

[A64Pilot]

A bonanza is not a laminar flow airfoil, one would assume that boots would work better as in be less detrimental on the Bonanza airfoil, whereas boots would surely make Laminar flow, non laminar.

They are different airplanes, so far as useful load, it’s not as clear cut as you may think, if you take CG into consideration, and if you compute useful load with the fuel load required to complete the trip. useful shrinks significantly. Fuel cuts into useful of course and a Bo has to carry more fuel to go the same distance.

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by A64Pilot

[CAV Ice]

Another reason there are more Mooney's with TKS...

Mooney FIKI STC was issued 4/21/1995, Bonanza FIKI STC issued 3/14/2003.  During that 8 year period Mooney's had TKS kits installed at the factory as well as retrofit.  Bonanza's are all retrofit.

 

[Raptor05121]

On 3/15/2021 at 6:09 PM, Tim Jodice said:

In 2011 FEDEx refitted their deiced Caravan fleet with TKS. They had a booted known ice system that had boots on pretty much every forward facing surface they even booted the cargo pod. Unfortunately it was not up to the task of there schedule routes and some people died from icing.

I guarantee you they didn't put TKS on their aircraft because they thought the shiny leading edges would make people ship more packages with them. 

To have TKS installed on a Mooney today (February 2021) it costs $72,000. Think (I don't know) about how much it must cost to put it on a caravan.

Yup I fly a 2011 Caravan for a FedEx feeder in the northeast and we have 100% TKS'ed birds. So far the two months I've been here, I've heard nothing but horror stories and read accident reports from booted planes. If I ever get a bigger, badder Mooney you can be damned sure TKS is going on the top of the list. Its an eye opener.

FWIW, I had a class with a guy taking delivery of a new 2021 C208B EX with TKS and he told me it cost $140,000 to check that box

Edited March 29, 2021 by Raptor05121

[Tim Jodice]

36 minutes ago, Raptor05121 said:

Yup I fly a 2011 Caravan for a FedEx feeder in the northeast and we have 100% TKS'ed birds. So far the two months I've been here, I've heard nothing but horror stories and read accident reports from booted planes. If I ever get a bigger, badder Mooney you can be damned sure TKS is going on the top of the list. Its an eye opener.

FWIW, I had a class with a guy taking delivery of a new 2021 C208B EX with TKS and he told me it cost $140,000 to check that box

What route do you typically fly? 

[Andy95W]

2 hours ago, Raptor05121 said:

Yup I fly a 2011 Caravan for a FedEx feeder in the northeast and we have 100% TKS'ed birds. 

Posted July 16, 2020

My guess for a new professional pilot like Alex- @Raptor05121 is that he's in a good spot- making money flying airplanes, building time.  I bet he has a job at a regional airline sometime in 2022, which is only about 6 months off his expected timeline.

• Raptor05121
•  1

----------------------------------------------------------------

Alex- @Raptor05121- I cut and pasted what I said 9 months ago when life looked pretty bleak for you. 

I'm glad things are looking up!  I think I'll revise my estimate and say that you could be flying for a regional airline this year, if you decide that's what you want.  Regardless, PIC Turbine time is worth a lot.  All you really need is some multi-engine time to go with it.

Enjoy the spring and summer.  Keep us posted.

[Raptor05121]

Thanks!

On 3/29/2021 at 3:08 PM, Tim Jodice said:

What route do you typically fly? 

I'm up in Maine doing various runs

[Gagarin]

"To have TKS installed on a Mooney today (February 2021) it costs $72,000. Think (I don't know) about how much it must cost to put it on a caravan."

Before you go TKS try this:

Lighter and cheaper than TKS

Just spray it on the leading edge before flight.

$12.62 on Amazon.com

 

 

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Edited March 31, 2021 by Gagarin

[M016576]

The mass numbers are strictly because it’s a factory option with the Mooney... and aftermarket with a Bo.

ie- easier to justify the utility of adding 65K to a 650K new hull than adding 65K to a 150K (or less) hull... regardless of make.

of course.., if you *need it*.. you need it.  Most in light piston singles don’t.  Hence the extra expense.

(fwiw, I’ve got tks on my J- missile.  And it works great when needed).

Edited March 31, 2021 by M016576