Critique my Panel Idea

[OZMOONEYMAN]

Critique my Panel Idea

 

Hi all,

Calling all Garmin specialists and advocates of better options.  

Looking at achieving a cost effective safe IFR platform.  My current idea from steam to this panel mock-up configuration attached.  Thanks to MS-Paint and Gsxrpilots image.

Current thoughts:

*Improbable dual EFIS failure, but I desire the 'Lifesaver®’ - electric gyro AI.  Has own 60min standby power.  No software update errors.  Probably less susceptible to an EMP ... ha

*Steering towards majority Garmin due compatibility/complementary with GFC-500, seemingly an outstanding A/P

*G3X 7” vertical on space and cost-effective information display

*GI275 AI ADAHRS+AP over G5 because I don’t think G5 would fit here with bigger width.  Also allows for wx-500 input I believe?   (Can this unit be cycled through various functions if driving an autopilot?)

(Is it correct G3X and GI275 AI ADAHRS+AP will talk to each other and compare and exclude an erroneous unit output to A/P?)

*Really like the JPI EDM-900 primary.  Seems a good value pick. I like the independence from other displays in terms of redundancy and maximizing information screen real estate.

*Garmin audio panel – are there any complementary benefits here or can I source a less expensive alternative?

*GNX375 – staying with Garmin theme given the G3X and GFC-500 A/P for compatibility.  I see value in achieving ADS-B out and IN although the display is small I think the G3X and possibly GI275 can be utilized for mapping of traffic, terrain and possibly wx-500 lightning strikes?

*GTR225 COM, again staying on theme, but open to alternatives if no loss of functionally away from Garmin

Open to all ideas including a total rethink.

 

Thanks

Ozmooneyman

[MIm20c]

I would swap the 275 for a g5.  Use the saving to upgrade the 7 inch to a 10 inch. Move the lifesaver above the altimeter on the copilot side and bin the ASI. Move the red gear ground ops button bellow the handle and shoehorn everything in.  

[MIm20c]

I know I’ve linked this photo before but this is a great layout for a mid body panel IMO @PJClark

 

[wpbarnar]

If you are only going with one G3X screen,  the 10” is much more versatile than a single 7” in portrait mode.  I frequently use the capability to split the 10” screen into two screens and capitalize on the functionality of the G3X system.  The two screens on a split 10” still are large enough to remain useful.  
 

Bill

[tuccio]

CFII here. Having instructed on both the 375 and 650/750s, I have a strong preference for the 650/750, if you can swing it. Having VLOC and GPS output from one device is just a much more seamless experience. Switching between two devices (i.e. the GPS over to the NAV radio) for RNAV approaches vs VOR/ILS approaches adds a lot of button pushing and configuration management to approaches. That being said, I was doing all of this with a KAP 140 autopilot. The GFC 500 may handle things much more smoothly.

I also second @MIm20c's comment about the G5 vs the 275. I think the G5 is cheaper, and has similar functionality to the 275. There seem to be better areas in the panel to apply those savings.

Edited February 21, 2021 by tuccio

[PeteMc]

@tuccio The 275 has a LOT more functionality than the G5.  A lot of people compare them when just looking for an FD/HSI and if that is all you're looking for, then you can say they are similar.  But there's a lot more the 275 can do and Garmin themselves have said that the 275 was created to greatly improve over the G5.  

G5 is a great device and costs less, so it is a perfect fit for some installations.  But if you're really looking at the mission of the plane and all the various options out there, the 275 can really check a lot of the lists in one device.  And a LOT more items off that list with multiple 275.  But that also means you really need to look at the price tag for what functionality you want.

[StevenL757]

3 hours ago, tuccio said:

I also second @MIm20c's comment about the G5 vs the 275. I think the G5 is cheaper, and has similar functionality to the 275. There seem to be better areas in the panel to apply those savings.

Honestly, they're worlds apart.  The GI275 has been referred to by a couple of shops' key folks I know as the "TXi in a tube".  Basic functionalities between the two may be the same, but for the small cost differential, one would be foolish not to pick the GI275 over the G5.

[StevenL757]

12 hours ago, OZMOONEYMAN said:

Looking at achieving a cost effective safe IFR platform.  My current idea from steam to this panel mock-up configuration attached.  Thanks to MS-Paint and Gsxrpilots image.

Current thoughts:

*Improbable dual EFIS failure, but I desire the 'Lifesaver®’ - electric gyro AI.  Has own 60min standby power.  No software update errors.  Probably less susceptible to an EMP ... ha.  - Unnecessary, given the redundancy of today's EFIS/backup ADI option.  Put the money into something else.

*Steering towards majority Garmin due compatibility/complementary with GFC-500, seemingly an outstanding A/P - Outstanding.

*G3X 7” vertical on space and cost-effective information display - If you're truly considering a 7" display, I'd consider a TXi.  Ideally, the G500 TXi 10.6".  More expandability options than the G3X, but if your budget won't allow, then the G3X would be ok.  In either case, I'd seriously consider moving up in size from the 7" display option.  You'll appreciate the added real estate.

*GI275 AI ADAHRS+AP over G5 because I don’t think G5 would fit here with bigger width.  Also allows for wx-500 input I believe?   (Can this unit be cycled through various functions if driving an autopilot?) - Without a doubt, the GI275 if you have the choice.  Don't skimp here.  The 275 is far superior, and has been referred to as the "TXi in a tube"...referring to the functionality of the G500TXi.

(Is it correct G3X and GI275 AI ADAHRS+AP will talk to each other and compare and exclude an erroneous unit output to A/P?) - Yes to the first part.  Not sure what you mean by "exclude an erroneous unit output to A/P".

*Really like the JPI EDM-900 primary.  Seems a good value pick. I like the independence from other displays in terms of redundancy and maximizing information screen real estate. - Couldn't agree more.  If you didn't have ANY engine management functionality, I'd say go for the Garmin EIS option, but certainly not over a JPI EDM900 or a EDM930.

*Garmin audio panel – are there any complementary benefits here or can I source a less expensive alternative? - I would stick with a PMA450A or PMA450B.  Superior to the Garmin audio panels and a little bit less-expensive.  Mark Scheuer @Mscheuer on here can give you the definitive comparison.  He knows "just a little bit" about the PMA products.  ;-)

*GNX375 – staying with Garmin theme given the G3X and GFC-500 A/P for compatibility.  I see value in achieving ADS-B out and IN although the display is small I think the G3X and possibly GI275 can be utilized for mapping of traffic, terrain and possibly wx-500 lightning strikes? - If you're planning a GNX and separate COMM, your best bet is the GTN650.  With the GFC500 AP, you won't reap the benefit of VNAV functionality without one or more GTN navigators.  The price points for the GTN versus a separate COMM and the GNX are close...plus you'll save a bit of radio rack space.  If you have a GDL69/69A or other XM product, I'd consider retiring the WX500.  Except for live lightning strike activity (which you shouldn't be flying near anyway), you have everything you need with an XM weather link.  Removing the WX500 will save you weight.

*GTR225 COM, again staying on theme, but open to alternatives if no loss of functionally away from Garmin - See bullet point immediately above.

Open to all ideas including a total rethink. - Other thoughts...

• Lose the altimeter on the right - put the money toward the above plan
• Lose the ASI and the electric ADI on the left - put the money toward the above plan
• Lose the gauges to the left of the ASI and electric ADI.  If those are engine instruments, you have that functionality in the EDM900.  If they're for something else necessary that we can't see or you haven't told us about, let us know.  Consider adding a small clock where that round instrument to the far left is located.

Without seeing what budget you had in mind...

• My thoughts on your ideas above
• Edits on your panel layout below, and...
• My current panel for comparison / ideas at the bottom

 

[tuccio]

@PeteMc @StevenL757 I don't want to get too far off from @OZMOONEYMAN's topic. But is my understanding correct that if @OZMOONEYMAN installs the GI275 as a backup attitude indicator, it could do EVERYTHING I outlined in blue, whereas a G5 could only do the things I pointed to in red?

 

Edited February 22, 2021 by tuccio
Accidentally posted two pics. Only 1 was intended.

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard OZ!

If going ultimate panels...

There are two Garmin based spectacular panels around here...

You found @StevenL757’s already... now find @donkaye’s...

 

If you want to see how spectacular a TXi in a tube can be...  

find @Fly_M20R‘s Chris has done some great writing and flying and YouTubing about his new avionics....

 

If you want to see something other than big G...   Dynon looks like a strong player, getting stronger...

Find @PilotFun101 and @chris.............

For additional Dynon ideas and considerations...   

 

Best regards,

-a-

[StevenL757]

4 hours ago, tuccio said:

don't want to get too far off from @OZMOONEYMAN's topic. But is my understanding correct that if @OZMOONEYMAN installs the GI275 as a backup attitude indicator, it could do EVERYTHING I outlined in blue, whereas a G5 could only do the things I pointed to in red?

Basically yes.

[Lance Link]

I think I’d go with the Garmin engine instrument display and save the panel space required for the JPI, then you can easily fit the 10” G3X, maybe save a little with a G5, and find a way to swing a GTN 650, even if only a used non-Xi.  

[OZMOONEYMAN]

9 hours ago, StevenL757 said:

Without seeing what budget you had in mind...

• My thoughts on your ideas above
• Edits on your panel layout below, and...
• My current panel for comparison / ideas at the bottom

 

 

 

Thanks very much for your detailed reply Steven.  I'm on a budget, so probably sticking with GNX375 (seems to price out much better than alternative secondhand GTN650 and remote transponder units accounting for no com.  'With the GFC500 AP, you won't reap the benefit of VNAV functionality without one or more GTN navigators.'   Could you elaborate on this comment... i wish to be able to do LPV and LNAV/VNAV approaches.  PS Engineering audio panel seems the way to go, thanks.  Also I assume a non Garmin radio (ICOM A220 etc.) would mean the ability to tune com frequencies through G3x touch would disappear?  Perhaps a Garmin GTR 20 remote mount would be a good cost effective solution... but if G3X goes you lose a radio I gather. 

[donkaye, MCFI]

29 minutes ago, OZMOONEYMAN said:

 

 

Thanks very much for your detailed reply Steven.  I'm on a budget, so probably sticking with GNX375 (seems to price out much better than alternative secondhand GTN650 and remote transponder units accounting for no com.  'With the GFC500 AP, you won't reap the benefit of VNAV functionality without one or more GTN navigators.'   Could you elaborate on this comment... i wish to be able to do LPV and LNAV/VNAV approaches.  PS Engineering audio panel seems the way to go, thanks.  Also I assume a non Garmin radio (ICOM A220 etc.) would mean the ability to tune com frequencies through G3x touch would disappear?  Perhaps a Garmin GTR 20 remote mount would be a good cost effective solution... but if G3X goes you lose a radio I gather. 

The only way to get enroute VNAV (multiple stepdowns like in a STAR usually flown without intervention by the pilot) on the GFC 500 is with a Garmin GTN.  

[OZMOONEYMAN]

Oh copy.  Appreciate the info thanks

[OZMOONEYMAN]

Thank you to all replies.  Taken a few options on board.  Much appreciated.  

10.6" over 7" she likes better ha

G5 over GI275 helps to pay for it.

Don't need SID/STAR VNAV protection too often so happy with value GNX375 with inbuilt transponder.  

Still desiring steam backup... Two lots of 2 1/4 inches and 3 1/8 probably fit there.

Remote GTR 20 COMM via G3X touch saves a little and nice integration.

PS Eng. Audio panel seem both good value and a great product... can't afford Garmin voice commands at this stage.

If Dynon would come through with AP approval I might re think once again.

Hmm which Navigator COM/NAV would integrate with Dynon and will the Dynon A/P be good for LPV... a whole another topic!!

[Mooney in Oz]

1 hour ago, OZMOONEYMAN said:

Hmm which Navigator COM/NAV would integrate with Dynon

Avidyne IFD540 or 440.

[OZMOONEYMAN]

Copy.  Is Dynon certified ADAHRS display, certified to drive any legacy autopilots like BK or STEC... I assume not.

[wpbarnar]

Have you compared the price of the Garmin engine monitor vs a JPI?  There may potential saving as you can incorporate the Garmin engine monitor into the 10” G3X.

I only have a single 10” display and my engine monitor is incorporated into it. The “normal” display for engine monitor is a narrow vertical column displaying RPM, MP, OIL PRESS, OIL TEMP, & Fuel.  I split the screen to see EGT, CHT, Fuel flow etc for leaning.  

i am not concerned about lack of redundancy of not having a dedicated engine monitor screen.   During practice IFR approaches, I will sometimes cover the G3X and fly the approach with the GTN and G5 only.  You don’t need RPM and MP to safely execute an approach.

Additionally if you are a data geek, I think a data download from the Garmin engine monitor is way cooler than a JPI.   In addition to all the engine data,  all the flight information is captured also.  IAS,TAS,Alt, Density Alt, pitch angle, roll angle and on and on.  The spread sheet contains 102 different columns of data, recorded every second.

Bill

[OZMOONEYMAN]

1 hour ago, wpbarnar said:

Have you compared the price of the Garmin engine monitor vs a JPI?  There may potential saving as you can incorporate the Garmin engine monitor into the 10” G3X.

I only have a single 10” display and my engine monitor is incorporated into it. The “normal” display for engine monitor is a narrow vertical column displaying RPM, MP, OIL PRESS, OIL TEMP, & Fuel.  I split the screen to see EGT, CHT, Fuel flow etc for leaning.  

i am not concerned about lack of redundancy of not having a dedicated engine monitor screen.   During practice IFR approaches, I will sometimes cover the G3X and fly the approach with the GTN and G5 only.  You don’t need RPM and MP to safely execute an approach.

Additionally if you are a data geek, I think a data download from the Garmin engine monitor is way cooler than a JPI.   In addition to all the engine data,  all the flight information is captured also.  IAS,TAS,Alt, Density Alt, pitch angle, roll angle and on and on.  The spread sheet contains 102 different columns of data, recorded every second.

Bill

Thanks Bill, this train of thought is what I'm now on.  10.6" G3X with EIS 

[carusoam]

Bill, got an example of all that data you can share?

I have not seen that yet!

Best regards,

-a-

[MIm20c]

On 2/22/2021 at 3:41 AM, OZMOONEYMAN said:

 

I really like the new layout. I’d seriously consider ditching the ASI and altimeter just to clean up the right side a little (or make room for your 155’s cdi). Also think about a gtr 225 vs the 20. I have a feeling this will be your main radio and it’ll be nice to have knobs to spin without using your pfd. Also you’ll need the pma’d versions of the 20 or 200 which make the cost difference very little. 

[OZMOONEYMAN]

4 hours ago, MIm20c said:

I really like the new layout. I’d seriously consider ditching the ASI and altimeter just to clean up the right side a little (or make room for your 155’s cdi). Also think about a gtr 225 vs the 20. I have a feeling this will be your main radio and it’ll be nice to have knobs to spin without using your pfd. Also you’ll need the pma’d versions of the 20 or 200 which make the cost difference very little. 

Thanks!.  Also considering Dynon Certified mixed with Garmin GNX 375.  

I'm still trying to work out optimum EFIS / Eng monitoring / Autopilot upgrades.

Questions if you or others know...

1) What am I missing for components required in the Garmin install option list, and/or Dynon list also ?

2) Would Garmin GNX375 GPS/Transponder with ADS-B out and in for ~ 8k, output traffic and weather to a Skyview HDX display?

3) Will the Dynon autopilot (Hopefully approved for Mooney) likely have specific approval for LPV approaches down to ~ 200' AGL?

4) Would it be legal if Dynon Skyview was installed and legacy autopilot driven off an existing turn coordinator or attitude indicator that's moved to right side panel (Possible thought until Dynon autopilot is approved... risk - autopilot doesn't get approved at all  ).

 

Ill post below a mock up I did in MS paint (such a difficult program for it ha)

 

[OZMOONEYMAN]

Want my steam... yeah yeah extreme improbable situation and a bit untidy but

[cwaters]

6 hours ago, OZMOONEYMAN said:

Thanks!.  Also considering Dynon Certified mixed with Garmin GNX 375.  

I'm still trying to work out optimum EFIS / Eng monitoring / Autopilot upgrades.

Questions if you or others know...

1) What am I missing for components required in the Garmin install option list, and/or Dynon list also ?

2) Would Garmin GNX375 GPS/Transponder with ADS-B out and in for ~ 8k, output traffic and weather to a Skyview HDX display?

3) Will the Dynon autopilot (Hopefully approved for Mooney) likely have specific approval for LPV approaches down to ~ 200' AGL?

4) Would it be legal if Dynon Skyview was installed and legacy autopilot driven off an existing turn coordinator or attitude indicator that's moved to right side panel (Possible thought until Dynon autopilot is approved... risk - autopilot doesn't get approved at all  ).

 

Ill post below a mock up I did in MS paint (such a difficult program for it ha)

 

Thank you for posting this, I'm prob 2 years out from doing this level of panel upgrade but already trying to figure out a good route to go and this is helping a lot !!