seeking shoulder harness solution

[MBDiagMan]

As much as I love the Hooker harness in my Cessna, I am hesitant to use it in the Mooney because of only one reason.  I would not be able to reach my fuel valve while wearing it.  In the Cessna I can reach every control in the cockpit except the pilot side wing root air vent.  Not being able to reach the fuel valve seems like a show stopper for me.  I’ve never made the fuel valve tool that I have seen talked about here, but depending on being able to reach that tool or possibly losing it from reach is a concern.   In my reel harness I can reach and operate the fuel valve with no trouble.
 

Just call me over cautious.

[Tcraft938]

On 12/2/2020 at 9:20 PM, MikeOH said:

THIS ^^^^ is what I did.  I bought the Alpha clamp kit (which was a TOTAL, and COMPLETE, PITA to install) from Spruce, and the complete seat belt/harness from Hooker.  (My wife actually DEMANDED I remove the sewn on labels, however)

I wouldn't take the name off, I'd have way too much fun with her.  "My cost effective hooker", "safety first, I got hooker", "I love the way my hooker holds me", "honey I'm going for a $150 hamburger and $10 hooker, want to come?"    :-)

[Tcraft938]

On 12/2/2020 at 9:06 AM, Alan Fox said:

I always "fiddlefuck" with a pair of hemostats , installing that back nut... Never even thought of welding them...I also drill and pin the clamps  , like the rudder interconnect , so they don't twist.. 

What do you mean "drill and pin the clamps"?  I saw an A&P do it pretty easily with boxed ratchet wrench and tape on one side to keep the nut from falling out.  He told me he normally uses CA glue to temporarily hold the nut in place but he was out of the glue.  I have not done either so can't speak to it.  I hope to install shoulder harnesses at annual this spring when we will have some of the panels off anyway for inspection of the cage.

[RLCarter]

1 hour ago, Tcraft938 said:

What do you mean "drill and pin the clamps"?  I saw an A&P do it pretty easily with boxed ratchet wrench and tape on one side to keep the nut from falling out.  He told me he normally uses CA glue to temporarily hold the nut in place but he was out of the glue.  I have not done either so can't speak to it.  I hope to install shoulder harnesses at annual this spring when we will have some of the panels off anyway for inspection of the cage.

My install kit had you drill through the band on the clamp and into the tubing then install a screw to keep the clamp from rotating around the tube

[skydvrboy]

8 hours ago, MBDiagMan said:

As much as I love the Hooker harness in my Cessna, I am hesitant to use it in the Mooney because of only one reason.  I would not be able to reach my fuel valve while wearing it.  In the Cessna I can reach every control in the cockpit except the pilot side wing root air vent.  Not being able to reach the fuel valve seems like a show stopper for me.  I’ve never made the fuel valve tool that I have seen talked about here, but depending on being able to reach that tool or possibly losing it from reach is a concern.   In my reel harness I can reach and operate the fuel valve with no trouble.
 

Just call me over cautious.

So order your Hooker harness with the inertia reel.

[MBDiagMan]

Wow!  I didn’t know they have an inertia reel.

That said, what I like about the hookers in my 140 is that I am solidly held in place.  If I’m going from one inertia reel to another, I’m not sure it’s worth the change.

Thanks for pointing it out though.

[jamesm]

The Lasar Shoulder harness  kit has the nut welded/brazed/soldered on to the clamp. Makes the installation so much easier. Not sure if the sell the clamp separately.

Bruce Jaeger told me  if you rotate the latching portion of the belt buckle  instead having facing up have it facing your hip/thigh  that keeps from coming unlatched. 

It happens on occasion  for me. Some where on Mooney Space a different thread. Someone had come up a cover over the belt latch. I don't remember who it was.

James '67C

Edited January 28, 2021 by jamesm

[MikeOH]

The royal PITA for me was getting the clamp AROUND the tube, especially on the pilot's side.

The whole issue with the nut wasn't a big deal; a little piece of painter's tape held it in place until I got the bolt started.

[jamesm]

Yeah The Co-pilot side as i recall wasn't too bad. Once I had opened up the clamp enough. The pilot's side was  real pain. I real hesitant to open the clamp up that much. If I remember Correctly I pretty Much had the clamp flat to get it around tubing structure on the pilot's side  was sure if I would be able to close the clamp properly.  The part of having the nut welded to the clamp,  is if have you interior cover you trying to position and align the clamp while you try start the bolt through the cover can be a challenge. On co-pilot side I put slot interior cover You barely tell Since it covered Up by the shoulder harness attachment. The  pilot side On my  67C It the interior cover trim goes front and back left side windows. So if I want to remove the Interior window trim on left Side I have remove the pilot's shoulder harness.

[Cruiser73]

 I purchased the shoulder anchor kits from alpha aviation for my M20G.  The passenger side was easy to get around the tubing but the pilot side has an aluminum piece that is screwed into the tubing leaving no space to slip the bracket on.  I believe obstruction is L shaped aluminum that is riveted to the skin and connects the skin to the tubing with a fews screws.  Suggestions?? 

[MikeOH]

21 hours ago, Cruiser73 said:

 I purchased the shoulder anchor kits from alpha aviation for my M20G.  The passenger side was easy to get around the tubing but the pilot side has an aluminum piece that is screwed into the tubing leaving no space to slip the bracket on.  I believe obstruction is L shaped aluminum that is riveted to the skin and connects the skin to the tubing with a fews screws.  Suggestions?? 

YUUUP!  TOTAL, PITA!

I removed the overhead trim panels and brought the clamp down from the top of the tube...still barely able to get the clamp around the tube.  Gawd, I'm glad I'll never have to do it again!

Good luck!

[SSimpson77]

I just did mine about 6 months ago… if I recall, you have to manipulate the clamp  so it has a slight radius, like the area where the bolt goes through. I tried going high but I have a lot of insulation from previous owner. That L bracket aluminum does get unscrewed, it should give you enough room to shimmy it through.

I cheated and just put a slot cut next to bolt hole so I can take off window trim easy.

[BillyT0020]

On 1/27/2021 at 6:55 AM, MBDiagMan said:

As much as I love the Hooker harness in my Cessna, I am hesitant to use it in the Mooney because of only one reason.  I would not be able to reach my fuel valve while wearing it.  In the Cessna I can reach every control in the cockpit except the pilot side wing root air vent.  Not being able to reach the fuel valve seems like a show stopper for me.  I’ve never made the fuel valve tool that I have seen talked about here, but depending on being able to reach that tool or possibly losing it from reach is a concern.   In my reel harness I can reach and operate the fuel valve with no trouble.
 

Just call me over cautious.

I just removed the shoulder harnesses from my plane for this reason. Have had the inertia style shoulder harnesses get stuck on me too many times, prefer just the lap belt anyway. 

[neilpilot]

10 hours ago, BillyT0020 said:

I just removed the shoulder harnesses from my plane for this reason. Have had the inertia style shoulder harnesses get stuck on me too many times, prefer just the lap belt anyway. 

When I had shoulder harnesses installed in my 64E I opted for the simplicity of non-inertial. I’m convinced that if we hadn’t been wearing shoulder belts when we fell into the soybean field in 2012, we both would have likely suffered significant injury.

[KLRDMD]

On 12/2/2020 at 7:59 AM, 0TreeLemur said:

The shoulder belt attach point clamp on my a/c has an integral nut.  I didn't install, but this indicates they are available.

If I recall correctly, I installed those when I owned your airplane 

[Pinecone]

12 hours ago, BillyT0020 said:

I just removed the shoulder harnesses from my plane for this reason. Have had the inertia style shoulder harnesses get stuck on me too many times, prefer just the lap belt anyway. 

This is not a good idea.

In the case of a sudden stop, you will hit your face/head on the panel.  If you hit hard enough, you may knock yourself unconscious and not be able to get out of a burning plane.

I hit the panel hard enough, with a harness and wearing a helmet that I broke my nose and fractured the orbit of one eye.  My friend, did not get out of the plane.  I believe it was due to the poor fitting helmet he was using.

His new, custom fit, Flight Suits Ltd helmet had been delivered the day after he left for us to go to Sun n Fun in his T-34.

[Skates97]

14 hours ago, BillyT0020 said:

I just removed the shoulder harnesses from my plane for this reason. Have had the inertia style shoulder harnesses get stuck on me too many times, prefer just the lap belt anyway. 

 

3 hours ago, neilpilot said:

When I had shoulder harnesses installed in my 64E I opted for the simplicity of non-inertial. I’m convinced that if we hadn’t been wearing shoulder belts when we fell into the soybean field in 2012, we both would have likely suffered significant injury.

I agree with @Pinecone and I would not fly without shoulder harnesses. @neilpilot's experience is a perfect example, and there are more out there. Adding shoulder harnesses was the first thing upgrade I did as soon as I got my plane. I have the inertial style and have never had any issues, but even if they did get stuck from time to time when I went to change tanks I would still keep them. I would rather spend a few seconds getting them unstuck to switch tanks than have my face smash the panel in the even of an incident.

My DPE for my PPL refused to fly in anything without shoulder belts. His son landed off airport, I believe it was a Luscombe. All went well until he hit a small berm which flipped the plane. It did not have shoulder belts and he ended up at the hospital in intensive care for a long time and was lucky to have even survived. The cabin was not in terrible shape and if he had shoulder harnesses he would have walked away with some bruises and soreness.

 

[EricJ]

There are plenty of examples of fatal accidents from head injuries that would have been survivable with a shoulder harness.   It's one of the most effective safety elements in an aircraft front seat.   I would not recommend deleting a shoulder harness.

 

[MikeOH]

16 hours ago, BillyT0020 said:

I just removed the shoulder harnesses 

I’m going to be blunt, not polite like the other posters:

This is DUMB. Not even going to say sorry.

[Rwsavory]

18 hours ago, BillyT0020 said:

I just removed the shoulder harnesses from my plane for this reason. Have had the inertia style shoulder harnesses get stuck on me too many times, prefer just the lap belt anyway. 

Get some shoulder harnesses installed. Flying with just a lap belt in the front seats is not safe. 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Rwsavory said:

Flying with just a lap belt in the front seats is not safe. 

Sure it is!

Crashing without shoulder belts is demonstrably less safe than crashing with shoulder belts, but both are "iffy" propositions.

[0TreeLemur]

8 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

If I recall correctly, I installed those when I owned your airplane 

Yes sir.  Front seats had well installed shoulder harnesses.  I added them to the back seats.

[DCarlton]

Shoulder belts are fine...  I'd take them but I'm not optimistic at all that they would be that effective in a Mooney.  You sit too close to the yoke and panel even if you have long legs.  I was in a rear end collision years ago in an F-150, wearing my shoulder belt, and was pushed into the car in front of me.  My face hit the steering wheel anyway; hard.  Your body is pretty flexible when faced with that sort of sudden deceleration.  I bent right around Ford's inertial shoulder belt.  For what it's worth, I keep a cushion in the back seat that I plan to put between me and the yoke in case of an off airport landing.  It make me "feel" better about the possible of survival.  

But I'm no expert...  or a mechanic... or an aerospace safety engineer...   

[neilpilot]

3 hours ago, DCarlton said:

Shoulder belts are fine...  I'd take them but I'm not optimistic at all that they would be that effective in a Mooney.  You sit too close to the yoke and panel even if you have long legs.  I was in a rear end collision years ago in an F-150, wearing my shoulder belt, and was pushed into the car in front of me.  My face hit the steering wheel anyway; hard.  Your body is pretty flexible when faced with that sort of sudden deceleration.  I bent right around Ford's inertial shoulder belt.  For what it's worth, I keep a cushion in the back seat that I plan to put between me and the yoke in case of an off airport landing.  It make me "feel" better about the possible of survival.  

But I'm no expert...  or a mechanic... or an aerospace safety engineer...   

They were certainly effective in my Mooney. Based on experience, not theory.

[DCarlton]

49 minutes ago, neilpilot said:

They were certainly effective in my Mooney. Based on experience, not theory.

Inertial shoulder strap or fixed/adjustable?  Ive considered installing the one without the inertial reel.