Masks or Cannulas or?

[milotron]

Thank you everybody for all of the input on this, I wasn't expecting that much interest in this post!

 I'll check the CO closely. I have a Sensorcon(?) unit that I got through this site but don't always have it out. I rarely saw anything over 10 and only on the ground when it was.

I wonder if the forest fire smoke has a CO component that may impact this?

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, milotron said:

They definitely went up and down as O2 flow was varied. I dialed it down a bit at one point and saw 95% before I dialed it back up again.

 

Still feeling it behind the right eye even now.

 

Altitude flying tend to affect me like this, but this was one of the worst, and with the O2 being used and monitored I wasn't really expecting this.

Certainly more work required on this.

I got CO poisoning once and I had a headache that lasted 3 days. It was like a hangover headache that wouldn't go away.

Maybe it had nothing to do with an exhaust failure, maybe idling for 30 minutes allowed the exhaust to get into the plane.

[McMooney]

9 minutes ago, milotron said:

Thank you everybody for all of the input on this, I wasn't expecting that much interest in this post!

 I'll check the CO closely. I have a Sensorcon(?) unit that I got through this site but don't always have it out. I rarely saw anything over 10 and only on the ground when it was.

I wonder if the forest fire smoke has a CO component that may impact this?

OMG, havent' you been listening to Fauci, wear a MASK.... 8)

I had a similar problem until i figured out my pulse ox wasn't reading correctly.  Purchased a new one problem solved.

[milotron]

14 minutes ago, McMooney said:

OMG, havent' you been listening to Fauci, wear a MASK.... 8)

I had a similar problem until i figured out my pulse ox wasn't reading correctly.  Purchased a new one problem solved.

I'm Canadian. I'll wear a mask so you don't have to!  Then apologize that you aren't wearing one...but I digress, eh.

Edited September 17, 2020 by milotron

[Danb]

4 hours ago, milotron said:

Yes, headache was still being suffered this morning.  

I used a fingertip sat meter and always at or over 98% the whole time as I kept checking it and adjusted flow accordingly.

Holding for 45 minutes waiting for fog to clear didn't help...

 

I was going to try the mask as originally had planned for higher but just used the cannula.

 

Do you fly with one or two pulse oximeters, I use two plus a watch with the oxy reading, my two oximeters differ by about 4-5%, I would check your meter to see if it is accurate. When I fly over 16-17000 ft I also get your symptoms, I assume our body exposed to that environment wears us out even though the ox saturation seems ok.

[N201MKTurbo]

It depends how you breath. If you are a mouth breather, you won’t get much from a cannula unless you consciously inhale through your nose.  You can also increase your SpO2 by exhaling as much as possible and taking a deep breath afterwards, then holding it as long as you can. 

[DanM20C]

4 hours ago, milotron said:

 I'll check the CO closely. I have a Sensorcon(?) unit that I got through this site but don't always have it out. I rarely saw anything over 10 and only on the ground when it was.

I always recommend having it in view at all times and include it in your scan.  You can catch a small rise and troubleshoot early.

Your symptoms do sound like it could be CO.  In a way I hope it is because it's an easy answer to what  is going on.  

Lots of great advice here.  I also second having a second SPO2 and a second CO monitor.  Both are inexpensive enough to easily justify the extra redundancy.

I hope you are feeling better soon and get to the bottom of this.

Cheers,

Dan

[carusoam]

Exhaust cracks typically don’t wait for the pilot to be ready with the sensor out...

The training from the 60s... where you would smell exhaust before dying from CO... forgot to mention... that CO affects your ability to sense things properly... it is also makes it easier to ignore important things...
 

What we have learned recently (this decade)... a crack can start on one flight Unnoticeably, and propagate inches long in a single other flight...

Best to have your CO monitor always on... it won’t do much good leaving it behind...

PP thoughts only, debunking old training myths whenever possible...

Best regards,

-a-

[aviatoreb]

11 hours ago, DanM20C said:

I always recommend having it in view at all times and include it in your scan.  You can catch a small rise and troubleshoot early.

Your symptoms do sound like it could be CO.  In a way I hope it is because it's an easy answer to what  is going on.  

Lots of great advice here.  I also second having a second SPO2 and a second CO monitor.  Both are inexpensive enough to easily justify the extra redundancy.

I hope you are feeling better soon and get to the bottom of this.

Cheers,

Dan

I also think a digital sensor that alarms audibly is important too since it should catch your attention if something is wrong.  I keep mine not exactly in my six-pack scan since there's not a lot of space, but in an easy to view spot which is I have a sensor con glued to the head board just above my visor just above my pilot position - so I see it with a upward glance and in habit of viewing it during taxi - during take off climb and sometimes during cruise.  And it alarms at 50ppm which is definitely too much but not yet acutely critically dangerous (but yes chronically dangerous).

Twice now in my flying career I have found induction leaks with my CO monitor.  Once about 7 or 8 years ago it helped me find a crack in my exhaust - early stage I was showing 30-40ppm on the CO so we started poking around looking for a cause.  And this summer there was a crack in a induction pipe - I don't know what to call the pipe since it is not an exhaust pipe just a little pipe, but I was getting again reading like 20-30ppm.  The main thing, is that its the difference from normal - where normally I would be getting maybe 2 or 0 ppm in flight all of a sudden one day it shows 20ppm that means ask yourself, what changed and why did it change.  So its a sort of trend monitoring.

[pwnel]

Sometimes after extended IFR in busy New York - Boston airspace I'm just wiped - period.  There's stats out about competitive chess players burning 7000 calories while sitting down playing a match.  Don't discount the mental effort required.

(That said, I fly with a Mountain High O2 system and the boom cannula that's attached to my Zulu headset. Highly recommended.   Also dual CO monitors - Sensorcon velcro'd to the panel, and Sentry unit placed on pilot side's window).

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, pwnel said:

Sometimes after extended IFR in busy New York - Boston airspace I'm just wiped - period.  There's stats out about competitive chess players burning 7000 calories while sitting down playing a match.  Don't discount the mental effort required.

(That said, I fly with a Mountain High O2 system and the boom cannula that's attached to my Zulu headset. Highly recommended.   Also dual CO monitors - Sensorcon velcro'd to the panel, and Sentry unit placed on pilot side's window).

Yeah - for that matter - when DRIVING near Boston or NYC through an hour of fast stop and go heavy traffic - I am pretty wiped out,  Actually maybe more wiped out that flying an hour along the same corridor since while that second is busy it is not minute by minute requiring constant control inputs and possible rear end accidents if I get it wrong.  

[Warren]

Dehydration can also cause problems and headaches are a frequent symptom.  The oxygen is dry and cold air has very little capacity for water.  Trying to manage bladders on long flights leads to starting a flight with minimal hydration.  I know that after long flights in the flight levels I am dried out -- I always carry some water and try to remember to hydrate along the way.

[tmo]

On 9/17/2020 at 9:39 PM, milotron said:

Interesting comment. at $100 per O2 fill I suspect the cost of adding the system add on would pay for itself soon enough.

+1 on the MH O2D2, which is high on my "want" list; but if you're paying $100 per O2 fill, and you use O2 a lot, you're doing it wrong. I recall a thread on cascading refill setups, might be of interest.

[milotron]

I

8 hours ago, tmo said:

+1 on the MH O2D2, which is high on my "want" list; but if you're paying $100 per O2 fill, and you use O2 a lot, you're doing it wrong. I recall a thread on cascading refill setups, might be of interest.

I tie down outside with no practical way of doing my own O2 fills. I would be trucking the bottles around and far more work than I want.

To O2D2 is coming soon. If I don't go to a PA46 in the next couple of months I will get that setup for sure.

[milotron]

As an update to this thread I have had a couple of flights but not at higher altitude. CO readings peaked at 8 and only when taxiing at low speed. Cowl flaps open and closed; LOP and ROP; climb, level and decent. No CO measurements above 3.

No sign of exhaust leaks during a quick inspection with the cowls off.

I have another flight in the teens coming on Monday so will monitor closely again with the CO sensor and sat levels.

The smoke is gone, replaced with torrential rains, so there is that factor too.

[rainman]

I use the Tocsin 3 CO monitor. About $170 from Aircraft Spruce. I also have the O2D2 system which really conserves oxygen. Ray

[milotron]

Further reporting...

 

40ppm (!) during climb at 1000fpm to 12,000. 2ppm when level.

20ppm during approach with gear down.

Action plans unless others have ideas:

Replace the rudder pedal boots. I know I can see daylight through one of them,

Pull carpets and ensure all tape is actually, well, tape and not turned into dust.

Have exhaust system inspected/pressure checked.

 

Turbo was replaced 50 hours ago; maybe something there, but no obvious signs of exhaust leaks at this point, nor when I changed oil 1 month ago.

 

 

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, milotron said:

Further reporting...

 

40ppm (!) during climb at 1000fpm to 12,000. 2ppm when level.

20ppm during approach with gear down.

Action plans unless others have ideas:

Replace the rudder pedal boots. I know I can see daylight through one of them,

Pull carpets and ensure all tape is actually, well, tape and not turned into dust.

Have exhaust system inspected/pressure checked.

 

Turbo was replaced 50 hours ago; maybe something there, but no obvious signs of exhaust leaks at this point, nor when I changed oil 1 month ago.

 

 

Sounds like a good plan.

just as a comparison, I usually see 10-20ppm on the ground depending on which way the wind is blowing.  During climb, I may see 5-10.  After that, should be zero all the way to landing.  My airplane isn’t exactly airtight.

In the past, I had an exhaust leak that I noticed because of the readings on the ground climbing to about 50.  In the air during cruise they were about 10.  Turns out an entire exhaust stack came loose at the cylinder.  Depending on how well your airplane is sealed up and the vagaries of the airflow, it could be a big or a small leak, but if your CO levels changed, I would definitely look through the exhaust system very carefully.

[Will.iam]

On 9/29/2020 at 8:43 AM, milotron said:

Further reporting...

 

40ppm (!) during climb at 1000fpm to 12,000. 2ppm when level.

20ppm during approach with gear down.

Action plans unless others have ideas:

Replace the rudder pedal boots. I know I can see daylight through one of them,

Pull carpets and ensure all tape is actually, well, tape and not turned into dust.

Have exhaust system inspected/pressure checked.

 

Turbo was replaced 50 hours ago; maybe something there, but no obvious signs of exhaust leaks at this point, nor when I changed oil 1 month ago.

 

 

Did you ever find out what was causing the elevated CO readings?

[PT20J]

My experience is that the most common leakage point is the seal on the bottom (and especially the lower front corner) of the main door. After replacing and carefully positioning the seal, I don't have any CO when airborne. During runnup, I sometimes get a little (usually around 4-6 ppm) depending on which way the wind is blowing and especially if he vents or pilots window are open.

Skip

[milotron]

8 hours ago, Will.iam said:

Did you ever find out what was causing the elevated CO readings?

No, nothing conclusive. Mech didn't anything either. It seems to have gotten better somehow, and not been over 20 at all.

 

I think it might be my one piece belly as it has a couple of drain holes in it. I keep meaning to tape them up and see if there is a difference.

 

My door seal is inflatable and has made no difference whether inflated or not.

[A64Pilot]

On 9/17/2020 at 4:12 PM, rcwagner said:

Concerning the remark about noise fatigue, I have of lately been using hearing protection ear plugs inside my noise attenuating head set, and turn the volume up so that I can clearly hear the intercom and radio.  It helps a lot with the noise bypassing the headset ear pads.

Pretty much every Army helicopter pilot does that, I had a custom set made for me by an Audiologist that had a hole in them that attenuated the damaging sound frequencies, they can be tailored for shooters and professional musicians etc to block different frequencies. After 20 years of flying helicopters and another 17 or so in turbine crop dusters that have zero sound proofing, I don’t have hearing loss, and I think it was mostly the ear plugs that prevented it.

[GeeBee]

Five hours single pilot on an IFR flight plan is a lot of flying. Airline crews typically don't exceed 4 hours without a rest break. Add in noise, no pressurization and dehydration (yes you were dehydrated unless you took to pees during that five hours) and yep, you should be pretty wiped.