Invoice for work I didn't request by an avionics guy I haven't spoken to in a year

[Oldguy]

So I go out to my hangar last Friday to find it open and the local avionics group doing a 91.411 and 91.413 check on my J. While I appreciate proactive maintenance, I would have thought I would at least have gotten a text or call about doing it. Especially since I had a remote transponder installed in spring and the 91.411 done at that time. Now, the avionics shop has sent me an invoice for doing this work I didn't request. I have figured out how he got a key to the hangar since he doesn't have one (and he won't get it again without me knowing), and he did the same checks in May 2018 when he installed my Aspen PFD. He and I have gotten cross-ways since then, but I thought we were back on track.

So what would y'all do?

Pay the money for something you didn't request, didn't need, and didn't authorize, or let him know to keep the logbook sticker and place it somewhere it will not fade from sunlight?

Am I making too much of fuss over a $400 invoice?

[EricJ]

I take a dim view of that sort of thing and would not reward somebody for doing unrequested work and would not want to reinforce that behavior.

Remember decades ago when the mail order places would just randomly ship people stuff and then bill them for it, based on the idea that they received the goods, so they owe for it?   Courts determined that that is not okay.   So I don't think it's okay for a service provider, either.

 

[ArtVandelay]

I would investigate why they did this, was it done on purpose or did someone just get confused. Then I still wouldn’t pay for it but it would affect if I used the shop in the future.

[toto]

1 hour ago, Oldguy said:

Pay the money for something you didn't request, didn't need, and didn't authorize, or let him know to keep the logbook sticker and place it somewhere it will not fade from sunlight?

Am I making too much of fuss over a $400 invoice?

So he was coming over proactively to do your IFR checks two months late?

I think this boils down to whether you'll have an ongoing relationship with the shop.  If you'll be working with them for the foreseeable future, then you'll need to be more diplomatic..   "That's a nice Mooney you got there - shame if somethin were to happen to it."

TBH, what I normally say in a misunderstanding like this, where I've known the people involved for a long time, is:  "I'm happy to pay your actual cost for work that was completed.  If you tell me that $400 is what you've got in this, then bill me for the $400."  I've never ended up paying the $400, and it's normally zero.

[PTK]

3 hours ago, Oldguy said:

So I go out to my hangar last Friday to find it open and the local avionics group doing a 91.411 and 91.413 check on my J.

So you were there while they were performing the work? 
You may not have specifically requested the work but you didn't stop them and object either. By not stopping them you allowed them to continue and complete it. So you accepted it.
I would pay their invoice and thank them. I would also speak with them to be sure they understand that in the future they need to contact you first.

Consider this example: after a heavy snowfall you get a couple kids to shovel your driveway. Then on the next snowfall they show up and in good faith they shovel again. You see them from your window but don’t stop them. Are you going to question paying them?! Even though they did the work and you accepted it!  It would be very unethical to not pay them!

[aviatoreb]

I say start from the position that someone made an error and go from there.  Maybe someone misunderstood what you said some time in the past?  Or they got you confused with some other owner?

If they really are just drumming up work like that, it would not be ok with me.

[RLCarter]

2 questions, 1st - How did they get in your hangar, 2nd - have you had them come out to your hangar for the IFR cks  in the past?

Edited August 5, 2020 by RLCarter

[hammdo]

Challenge it and have them provide proof. If they did the work, pay them. In the future, give them written notice you must approve all work in writing. 
 

Be aware they can still file a lien on your plane if you don’t pay. The FAA takes the shop’s side...  If you contest and they file a lien, let the FAA know you’re contesting charges.

-Don

[Danb]

Since they were there when you went to the hanger I would have let them know that the work had been done and you didn’t request them to do it, then wait for a response and decide based on the tenor of the response what to do. Hopefully they would apologize and say they made a mistake. If the apology occurred then I’d offer to pay them something otherwise I’d again say the work was done thanks anyway 

[Cruiser]

This is unbelievable to me...........

the avionics shop did work on your plane that you did not ask for and was unnecessary?

Is this consistent with past practice that you condone? How were you going to know they did the work if you had not shown up? Do they have your log books? 

What is the "rest of the story" ?

[ArtVandelay]

FBO probably just let them in...this is pretty standard practice for businesses on site.

[1964-M20E]

Well I would be diplomatic at first.  If you walked up on them work in progress and like above didn't stop them hmmmm?

1. Politely challenge the invoice and request he void the invoice.  You do not need the log books singed off at this time so he has no skin in the game.
2. Compromise with him the check doesn't require more than an hour to do so 1 hour shop time about  $100 offer to pay him this for his time only.
3. If he insists on you paying the $400 you could up the ante and investigate pressing criminal trespassing charges against him.
4. This maybe a stretch but if you have a private hangar and you did not give him permission to be in there technically he was trespassing regardless of how he got in there.
5. Alert the FAA you are challenging the bill and call the local sheriff's office and file a police report for trespassing.

[47U]

2 hours ago, toto said:

So he was coming over proactively to do your IFR checks two months late?

That’s the kicker.  If he’s two months late doing ‘scheduled mx’ that’s not a schedule.

If you thought you’d patched up previous ‘sideways’ situations, then remind him that you didn’t approve this mx.  Then offer to prorate the charges for the amount of time now extended in the IFR cert.  $400 every 24 months works out to about $16.67/month.  If it’s four more months you get, offer him $100 and you’ll contact him if 24 months for the recert.  He gets something for his time and opportunity for future business vs. the option to file the receipt where it will not be subject to fading by the sun.

tom  

[201Steve]

I'm in the camp that we are not equipped with enough of the history and precedent that you described to make reasonable judgements about this. That said, you are obviously not unreasonable, else you wouldn't have been posting your thoughts here for feedback. I will say, if I walked into the hangar and someone was working on my airplane unannounced, they would have known immediately there was a problem and we'd have sorted it out right then and there. Hopefully you've already queried someone about what the heck they were doing, and if not, it would seem you're not being direct about your expectations of your service providers.

All of that said, I think if it benefits you at all, like you were going to need it done soon, or maybe within the next year, I would put them in a spot to either earn or decline your future business. I'd say something like, "You came in and did work without my knowledge, my cert wasn't due for another year, so you're a year early. If you think I should pay for a certification that I didn't need in half the time its' due I'll pay it, but we are done past that point." and let them make the negotiatory offer themselves. If it TRULY has no use to you whatsoever and there was no mix up of communication on your parts, I absolutely wouldn't pay for it.

 

[Aerodon]

I took a consultant along to help with an engineering assignment.  He was very helpful and brought bags of equipment and made sure I saw it all, and he used several cameras taking pictures.  He even offered me a granola bar on the flight back.

I got a shock with his invoice, he had billed a daily rate for every single gadget he took along, even his Spot.  And billed two by $25 for 'lunch' for the flight - his granola bar too.  I paid about half, still several thousand short of the overall bill.  He wrote to me several times and whined.  I told him I was clear about the overall budget, he had professional obligation to understand his client and the budget and bill accordingly, or speak up.  Eventually he asked what he should do with the outstanding balance.  I just replied 'write it off' and never heard from him again.

I later heard he had a reputation - he told another colleague he was in the area and could he come look at the project under construction.  Then sent a bill for ferries, overnight accommodation, and a days time.

We transferred a young engineer from San Diego to Vancouver.  He asked if he could drive his car up and we said sure.  He took a week, along with his girlfriend, stayed in a few very expensive hotels and had some really expensive meals.  He submitted an expense claim of $5,000, and literally cried when it was rejected.

Some people have no concept.

Aerodon

 

 

 

[PT20J]

This seems pretty simple:

1. Work done you didn't authorize is not billable and could be construed as tampering.

2. Tampering with aircraft may be a crime in many jurisdictions.

Skip

 

[PTK]

7 hours ago, PT20J said:

This seems pretty simple:

1. Work done you didn't authorize is not billable and could be construed as tampering.

2. Tampering with aircraft may be a crime in many jurisdictions.

Skip

 

Does it not make a difference that the op was present when they were doing the work? And by not challenging and stopping them he effectively consented and accepted their services? 

[PT20J]

Just now, PTK said:

Does it make any difference that the op was present when they were doing the work? And by not challenging and stopping them he effectively accepted their services? 

Maybe -- it would certainly weaken the argument and it's a good question for an attorney. I can't imagine any company I deal with doing that so it begs the question if there is more to the story....

[carusoam]

There are a few ways work gets done, and billing applies....

1) customary and proper... or maybe fair and equitable..?

ask somebody to do work... they quote time and materials... estimated in advance... close to the actual bill... done on time.  Done properly.

 

2) There is see how much I can get away with...  
Start working on something without owner approval....   don’t be surprised when he says I’ll pay you when I have money... I don’t have it today... honestly, I got paid monthly... if it isn’t in the plan... it might take a month to come up with that kind of dough...

My favorite mechanics have my cell number... and email... I’m pretty flexible with my schedule... and looking for a bargain if their work schedule isn’t aligned with mine...   

 

3) Wackiness and delusional thinking...

• work not needed
• work not matching the plane’s real schedule... Like having an annual a month early, or late....
• Work I didn’t ask for
• Work I didn’t approve
• Work I can’t afford

4) Back in the day.... Service organizations would tell me (the young guy) this is how my customers work, what they want....   when it’s your first time, you see how the other customers with lots of money, don’t care about time or materials, pay extra....  Sounds like they all want Cadillac’s and fantastic service...

I was a working guy.... now retired... have to / had to watch every P & Q going by....

5) Looks like a big mistake happened.... I would want to know, discuss, prevent mistakes from occurring....
 

6) It’s not a precedent I would want to set... even if it is clear that it is OK this time... It isn’t OK to do any other time from this day forwards....
 

Work day related...back when I had a job...

Having work done without specific approval is something I would look forward to... That is the sign of somebody losing control of their work team...  good workers on my projects, il-advised managers in control of their hours and dollars.... It’s a game that has everyone sharpening their skill sets.... Nobody gets by with cost over-runs, even in billion dollar companies.... they hire people to make this uncomfortable....   named it the carpet and the carpet dance.... Avoiding the carpet takes preparation and skill...    

So... if the work getting done is good, and is on time, that counts... if it is early, that was a dumb? financial error... on somebody’s part...

If you lost 2 months of an annual because A mechanic did it two months early... he has wasted exactly 2/12 of the Annual...

It seems like a fair man could honestly pay 10/12 of the bill If the work is good and complete...  a good supplier would accept that as full payment... and offer up some additional token freebie to make good on his error...

There would be an immediate understanding of the work approval process before that organization would be involved with my machines again...

PP thoughts of machine maintenance only, not a customer relations officer...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[khedrei]

If you never asked for the work, it's easy. Dont pay. If you want to stay on good terms, drop the guy a case of beer or some lunch for the crew one day to try and make peace and mention that you appreciate the proactive attempt but you still aren't paying. 

You cant just go around doing work that isnt requested and expect to be paid.  That was big in Toronto about 20 years ago with the squeegee kids when you got off the highway downtown, cleaning your window then demanding money. It's not surprising from them, but from a professional shop... 

[PTK]

8 hours ago, khedrei said:

...drop the guy a case of beer or some lunch for the crew one day...

This is always a good idea and an expression of gratitude. As long as he includes a check in payment of their invoice. He was present when they were performing the work and by not stopping them, then and there, he effectively consented to the work. It would be unethical to have someone work for you and not pay them! Also it is embarrassing to post it on the internet! If he truly felt that they trespassed and entered the hangar unwanted he should’ve stopped them immediately and investigate. Not post on the internet after the fact questioning if he should pay for their services or not! What is that?!

 

[midlifeflyer]

11 hours ago, hammdo said:

Challenge it and have them provide proof. If they did the work, pay them. In the future, give them written notice you must approve all work in writing. 
 

Be aware they can still file a lien on your plane if you don’t pay. The FAA takes the shop’s side...  If you contest and they file a lien, let the FAA know you’re contesting charges.

-Don

The FAA doesn't take anyone's side on liens. It doesn't even really check to see if they are proper. Letting the FAA know you are contesting is pretty much meaningless. It doesn't care. The only ones who care about it are the line filer, the owner, a lender, and a later purchaser.

And whether they can legitimately file a lien is a matter of state, not federal law, although people do illegally file liens, even on real estate.

[midlifeflyer]

I'm in the "I don't know enough" camp, except to say the first step is discussion.

[cbarry]

As this has been said already in several ways, if I were to experience walking up on someone working on my aircraft I would simply start a discussion of “how are you guys doing today?” Followed by “can ask what are you working on?”  Followed by “I hope I haven’t forgotten, but who authorized this work?”  Followed by “Oh, I thought that work had already been done...”. Followed by “Guys let’s stop what your doing for a moment and all get on the same page.”  Followed by either “I’m asking to leave now OR carry on.”

Many people shy away from confrontation, but fail to realize a gentle confrontation doesn’t necessarily have to be heated—it just needs to be clear and direct.  

 

 

Edited August 5, 2020 by cbarry

[Fry]

I'd be diplomatic and approach the shop's owner (or whoever is the suitable contact person) with a "concern" and need to speak personally or on the phone.

Then, I'd open up by saying "it seems there has been a misunderstanding", tell the facts without making any conclusion, and ask him for his explanation.

If there is no explanation, then politely say, well "I'm sorry for you that you did the work, but it has not been agreed upon, plus is unneeded and without benefit for me, so I cannot simply pay the bill as if it was totally fine". If you plan on working with this shop in the future, offer to pay something like $100. If not but the guy seems honest, give him open and friendly feedback.

If there is a good explanation - always be prepared that you may be wrong, maybe a co-owner of the plane has given the order, or you have signed a general agreement and forgot about it or something - then thank for the clarification and pay the bill.

Try NOT to be agitated or angry. That never helps.