Avionic Upgrade Advice

[Speed Merchant]

I dropped my 201 at Hawk Paint yesterday to have the LoPresti cowling painted that I just installed. Now I am on to the panel upgrade. I want to install a GFC-500, G3X and a G5 in a new panel. I am considering  replacing the 530W and KX-155. What should I replace the KX-155 with? How about the 530W?  I live in central Florida, can anyone suggest a good install shop  with Mooney experience in the south east? What is the removed KAP-150, KX-155 instruments and 530W worth? I am also going to sell the stock cowling and nose gear doors which are in very good shape.Thanks!

[Oldguy]

I believe @Alan Fox might be one to provide you with some realistic numbers.

[Bob - S50]

If you want to replace the GNS530w, I'd probably go with either the GTN750 or GTN650.  Either the original or the Txi version.  While the Avidyne would be cheaper to install than the Garmin, it won't necessarily allow your GFC500 to do everything it is capable of.

[Niko182]

Id do a 

PMA450B

GtN650XI

GTR200

You already have the transponder. I wouldnt waste the money on a 750. I have a gnx375, which is the smallest screen of the garmin fleet and i barely ever use it because the g3x does it all. All I use it for is transfering flight plans from the ipad, and loading approaches.

[dzeleski]

1 hour ago, Bob - S50 said:

If you want to replace the GNS530w, I'd probably go with either the GTN750 or GTN650.  Either the original or the Txi version.  While the Avidyne would be cheaper to install than the Garmin, it won't necessarily allow your GFC500 to do everything it is capable of.

The IFD is fully compatible with the G5 which is what controls the AP. Since the IFD is based on the GNS, VNAV altitude constraints as far as im aware will not work as it also does not work on the 530. As far as I know thats the only feature that doesnt work.

 

You can see a discussion about it here: http://forums.avidyne.com/g3x-gfc-500-and-an-ifd-540_topic1884.html

[MIm20c]

I’d keep the 530 or go with a 750. Used you can get one for around 11.5. Used 530w should bring 6.5-7 if it’s a 14/24v unit. 

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, Speed Merchant said:

What is the removed KAP-150, KX-155 instruments and 530W worth? I am also going to sell the stock cowling and nose gear doors which are in very good shape.Thanks!

 

 

You should be able to get about $1,000 for each servo and $1,800 to $2,500 for the AP Computer.

[ArtVandelay]

I would lose the 6 engine instruments and annunciator (you’ll only be left with gear indications).

 

The GNC255, GTN650, PS450 were my choices.

And throw away the compass hanging in your way and stick a panel mount compass somewhere.

 

[Bob - S50]

1 hour ago, dzeleski said:

The IFD is fully compatible with the G5 which is what controls the AP. Since the IFD is based on the GNS, VNAV altitude constraints as far as im aware will not work as it also does not work on the 530. As far as I know thats the only feature that doesnt work.

 

You can see a discussion about it here: http://forums.avidyne.com/g3x-gfc-500-and-an-ifd-540_topic1884.html

I thought I'd also heard that the IFD does not pass GPS altitude to the G5 either, which means the envelope protection portion won't work either.  For me, even if everything worked except the VNAV, that would still be a good enough reason for me to go with Garmin even if it cost me a bit more.   I use VNAV a LOT.

[Speed Merchant]

2 hours ago, Oldguy said:

I believe @Alan Fox might be one to provide you with some realistic numbers.

Thanks-I will give him a shot !

[Speed Merchant]

2 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

If you want to replace the GNS530w, I'd probably go with either the GTN750 or GTN650.  Either the original or the Txi version.  While the Avidyne would be cheaper to install than the Garmin, it won't necessarily allow your GFC500 to do everything it is capable of.

Thanks probably goes with GTN650

[Speed Merchant]

37 minutes ago, Bob - S50 said:

I thought I'd also heard that the IFD does not pass GPS altitude to the G5 either, which means the envelope protection portion won't work either.  For me, even if everything worked except the VNAV, that would still be a good enough reason for me to go with Garmin even if it cost me a bit more.   I use VNAV a LOT.

Thanks I will look into it

[Speed Merchant]

1 hour ago, MIm20c said:

I’d keep the 530 or go with a 750. Used you can get one for around 11.5. Used 530w should bring 6.5-7 if it’s a 14/24v unit. 

Thanks-what is the best place to sell the 530W?

[Speed Merchant]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

You should be able to get about $1,000 for each servo and $1,800 to $2,500 for the AP Computer.

Where should I try to sell it?

[Niko182]

Post it here, beechtalk, and barnstormers.

[dzeleski]

4 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

I thought I'd also heard that the IFD does not pass GPS altitude to the G5 either, which means the envelope protection portion won't work either.  For me, even if everything worked except the VNAV, that would still be a good enough reason for me to go with Garmin even if it cost me a bit more.   I use VNAV a LOT.

I dont believe that is accurate. The GAD 29 provides the ARINC 429 for nav information, RS232 provides one way data from the IFD to the G5, this is for the GPS data if you are not using the G5s internal antenna.

[carusoam]

Did you say you were looking for a shop to do the work..?

Jesse Saint is somewhere in the middle of Florida... and has some really good experience working with Mooney avionics...

Of course I only visited his shop one day... while he was out of town...

Got my first up close introduction to a Dynon unit... 

I was touring with Alan...

Best regards,

-a-

[Bob - S50]

16 minutes ago, dzeleski said:

I dont believe that is accurate. The GAD 29 provides the ARINC 429 for nav information, RS232 provides one way data from the IFD to the G5, this is for the GPS data if you are not using the G5s internal antenna.

Below is a quote from another thread here on MooneySpace.  According to Trek, the IFD does not pass the information needed to provide envelope protection.

"Annnnd…..

Another new wrinkle….

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My name is Trek Lawler and I'm the Supervisor of Garmin's Aviation Field Service Engineering team. I monitor different public forums and provide feedback and help to these members when they have problems such as this. Your thread was brought to my attention and I wanted to provide you some feedback. Actually Garmin's STC does call out the Navigators it is approved to interface with, in this case the GFC 500 requires an interface to a G5 or a G3X system utilizing the CAN buss, if you review these STC's closely you will see that the only GPS navigators we have as approved interfaces are the Garmin series of nav units. We've never tested or approved any third party GPS navigators for any of our STC's.
This unfortunately is an oversight it sounds from the installer in this case to review and verify if this system was in fact approved in this configuration. As you have found out it appears the IFD series of units do not provide the height above terrain data that is necessary for the ESP function to work correctly.
At this point since we do not have any plans for this integration I'd recommend that you contact your installer so they can try and work out a resolution so that you can have all of the functionality of the system.

 

Piper forum July 13/2020

---------------------------------------------------------------

This may apply to some legacy Garmin navigators as well.. Any that do NOT send "Height above terrain" data mess up the under speed protection and we are not sure what else... 

DO DIG into the STC carefully and check for compatibility with your Navigator including older Garmins.  This was discovered by a Piper pilot as he and his tech (with Garmin's help)  were trying to figure our why the underspeed  function did not work...  Nobody at this time seems to be sure how the handshake works...  Or sure why  the height above terrain is significant. It's early…

Apparently not all the Garmin people were aware of this... The conversation usually stops at "We do not support (whatever) "  They require an "All Garmin" panel ..  End of story...

This is all third hand info, FWIW. The above statement however was posted by the named Garmin Rep. and is believed to be accurate..

N"

[dzeleski]

11 minutes ago, Bob - S50 said:

Below is a quote from another thread here on MooneySpace.  According to Trek, the IFD does not pass the information needed to provide envelope protection.

 

Im gonna guess this is either a bug with the G5 or IFD or an install issue in general. There are many people that have an IFD, G5, and GFC 500 with a working envelope protection and underspeed protection. Avidyne is also aware of the Vnav issue and they are looking into trying to support it.

[Schllc]

I have never had any big panel changes, only repairs, software, transponders and a waas upgrade installed, on my mooney’s. 
all of them had little glitches, errors or omissions and required trips back. 
all under warranty, and relatively easily fixed but all required trips back. 
I would really try to find someone close to where I lived for this kind of work if possible. 
if I was hours away it would have been a real pita...

[chriscalandro]

10 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

Below is a quote from another thread here on MooneySpace.  According to Trek, the IFD does not pass the information needed to provide envelope protection.

"Annnnd…..

Another new wrinkle….

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My name is Trek Lawler and I'm the Supervisor of Garmin's Aviation Field Service Engineering team. I monitor different public forums and provide feedback and help to these members when they have problems such as this. Your thread was brought to my attention and I wanted to provide you some feedback. Actually Garmin's STC does call out the Navigators it is approved to interface with, in this case the GFC 500 requires an interface to a G5 or a G3X system utilizing the CAN buss, if you review these STC's closely you will see that the only GPS navigators we have as approved interfaces are the Garmin series of nav units. We've never tested or approved any third party GPS navigators for any of our STC's.
This unfortunately is an oversight it sounds from the installer in this case to review and verify if this system was in fact approved in this configuration. As you have found out it appears the IFD series of units do not provide the height above terrain data that is necessary for the ESP function to work correctly.
At this point since we do not have any plans for this integration I'd recommend that you contact your installer so they can try and work out a resolution so that you can have all of the functionality of the system.

 

Piper forum July 13/2020

---------------------------------------------------------------

This may apply to some legacy Garmin navigators as well.. Any that do NOT send "Height above terrain" data mess up the under speed protection and we are not sure what else... 

DO DIG into the STC carefully and check for compatibility with your Navigator including older Garmins.  This was discovered by a Piper pilot as he and his tech (with Garmin's help)  were trying to figure our why the underspeed  function did not work...  Nobody at this time seems to be sure how the handshake works...  Or sure why  the height above terrain is significant. It's early…

Apparently not all the Garmin people were aware of this... The conversation usually stops at "We do not support (whatever) "  They require an "All Garmin" panel ..  End of story...

This is all third hand info, FWIW. The above statement however was posted by the named Garmin Rep. and is believed to be accurate..

N"

This is exactly why I decided to stay away from Garmin and refuse to put any of their devices in my airplane (other than audio panel which is already there).
 

They do not play well with others and your options become limited. Everything else plays Nice with Garmin products, Garmin refuses to let you do anything other than Garmin products. 
 

I prefer choices over dictation. 

[StevenL757]

18 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

If you want to replace the GNS530w, I'd probably go with either the GTN750 or GTN650.  Either the original or the Txi version.  While the Avidyne would be cheaper to install than the Garmin, it won't necessarily allow your GFC500 to do everything it is capable of.

Agree.  Given @Speed Merchant’s panel space constraints...although that EDM930 is amazing...  ;-)

• Lose the King audio panel and ADF
• Go with a 750xi with GA35 “remote” audio
• Go with 650xi
• Should leave you room in that arrangement to put the GFC500 control head

Take some time and evaluate your comm cabling and connectors while you’re in there.  Over the last several months, I’ve had multiple controllers across the country indicate a problem hearing my transmissions at altitudes ranging from a few thousand feet to over 15,000 feet, and decided to address it during my second phase upgrades.  Comm units (old and new) as well as antennas and cabling were tested.  SWR testing showed unacceptable results on one of my blades, and borderline acceptable results on the other.  Opted to go with two new blades and new RG-142 cabling, to replace those last two RG-58 runs in the plane.  Retesting showed dramatic improvements.

As I gladly opted to do an all-Garmin and L-3 panel that meets every possible need (save for an attitude gyro issue with my ESI-500 “back in the day” that was easily rectified with a software fix), I’ve had ZERO issues with anything-Garmin.  Appreciate it’s an individual choice, and won’t get into “mine is better than yours” or vice versa.  With rare exception, the Garmin stuff just works.

[Bob - S50]

2 hours ago, chriscalandro said:

This is exactly why I decided to stay away from Garmin and refuse to put any of their devices in my airplane (other than audio panel which is already there).
 

They do not play well with others and your options become limited. Everything else plays Nice with Garmin products, Garmin refuses to let you do anything other than Garmin products. 
 

I prefer choices over dictation. 

I'll say the same thing I said in that thread.  I would not expect Garmin to spend the time and money to do some other manufacturer's job.  If those manufacturers want their equipment to work with Garmin autopilots then they can do the work.  TT had to work with other navigators because TT doesn't make navigators.  Now that TT is BK, maybe they won't care if it works with others (big mistake since though since nobody buys the BK navigators). STEC makes AP's but not navigators.  Dynon doesn't make navigators.

Garmin will play just fine with others as long as the others are willing to ensure compatibility.

If you think Garmin tries to exclude others, just look at the interface compatibility list for the GI275.  The other manufacturers didn't do that for Garmin.  Garmin took the time to ensure all those parts worked.

Edited July 22, 2020 by Bob - S50

[Speed Merchant]

1 hour ago, Bob - S50 said:

I'll say the same thing I said in that thread.  I would not expect Garmin to spend the time and money to do some other manufacturer's job.  If those manufacturers want their equipment to work with Garmin autopilots then they can do the work.  TT had to work with other navigators because TT doesn't make navigators.  Now that TT is BK, maybe they won't care if it works with others (big mistake since though since nobody buys the BK navigators). STEC makes AP's but not navigators.  Dynon doesn't make navigators.

Garmin will play just fine with others as long as the others are willing to ensure compatibility.

If you think Garmin tries to exclude others, just look at the interface compatibility list for the GI275.  The other manufacturers didn't do that for Garmin.  Garmin took the time to ensure all those parts worked.

good point

[Speed Merchant]

2 hours ago, StevenL757 said:

Agree.  Given @Speed Merchant’s panel space constraints...although that EDM930 is amazing...  ;-)

• Lose the King audio panel and ADF
• Go with a 750xi with GA35 “remote” audio
• Go with 650xi
• Should leave you room in that arrangement to put the GFC500 control head

Take some time and evaluate your comm cabling and connectors while you’re in there.  Over the last several months, I’ve had multiple controllers across the country indicate a problem hearing my transmissions at altitudes ranging from a few thousand feet to over 15,000 feet, and decided to address it during my second phase upgrades.  Comm units (old and new) as well as antennas and cabling were tested.  SWR testing showed unacceptable results on one of my blades, and borderline acceptable results on the other.  Opted to go with two new blades and new RG-142 cabling, to replace those last two RG-58 runs in the plane.  Retesting showed dramatic improvements.

As I gladly opted to do an all-Garmin and L-3 panel that meets every possible need (save for an attitude gyro issue with my ESI-500 “back in the day” that was easily rectified with a software fix), I’ve had ZERO issues with anything-Garmin.  Appreciate it’s an individual choice, and won’t get into “mine is better than yours” or vice versa.  With rare exception, the Garmin stuff just works.

Thanks for your comments-I will look into it