six gear collapses & gear ups in one week

[cliffy]

It begs the question what happened to the backup system? 

[kortopates]

7 hours ago, cliffy said:

It begs the question what happened to the backup system? 

I am very curious as well and hope to get some more details since it happened in my local area. But its currently under investigation with my local FSDO. All I know so far is the pilot departed IFR from OKB, an uncontrolled field with a relatively short (for a Mooney)  paved runway and was climbing out on the ODP and just intercepted V208 at the OCN VOR a few miles north at 3200' when his transponder stopped - apparently from the complete electrical failure reported by the pilot. I am looking at the FSDO's accident and incidents report right now for August but not only are details sketchy but they have mistakenly written it up as a J model. So all we know right now is that the pilot diverted back to nearby OKB airport (3 miles from his point of electrical failure) and landed gear up. 

Don't yet know if he attempted to use the manual gear extension system or not, nor how long it was airborne after its electrical failure. The '79 M20K is registered in Ohio.  

[cliffy]

If the xponder stopped then it could be that both the generator AND the battery failed, or the master sw was turned off, or the radio master was turned off. Lots  of questions. How old was the battery? etc etc 

Not Monday morning quarterbacking just questions

[larrynimmo]

In my j by the battery there is a little glass fuse....this fuse feeds the wire that gives clock and cabin lights  unrestricted power and also gives master switch the power to turn on the master power solonoid.  If that fuse should blow...nothing will turn on.

only access to this fuse is to remove the battery access panel in the tail

[tmo]

Definitely not how it works in my 1980 M20K - the little glass fuse blows regularly, so no cabin lights and time on clock not synced, but master / avionics master work fine.

[philiplane]

Mooney pilots are sadly keeping the pace for gear ups this year

[larrynimmo]

On 8/26/2020 at 6:26 AM, tmo said:

Definitely not how it works in my 1980 M20K - the little glass fuse blows regularly, so no cabin lights and time on clock not synced, but master / avionics master work fine.

I was wrong...I studied the wiring diagram...the 5 amp glass fuse protects the clock, cabin overhead lights, and fuel management device...has nothing to do with master power switch.

[philiplane]

An M20F geared up in Jacksboro TN last night.

[steingar]

On 8/31/2020 at 3:14 PM, 1980Mooney said:

1965 M20C gear up landing in Lorain, Ohio on Saturday. 

Geared up in a corn field.  Pilot did the right thing says me.

[Shadrach]

3 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

Registration shows that has owned it 3 months......  I am sure his insurance agent is very happy.  Aviation Consumer calls it the "$60K Slide".  So this owner made one payment of probably about $2K into the "insurance risk pool" and $60K is going out.  No wonder our insurance is rising.

I pretty sure that you know that that is not how insurance works.  

[zaitcev]

How comes you guys aren't discussing a disabled Mooney blocking the only remaining runway today in Austin, Texas (KAUS)? I saw a picture on FB with 9 airliners stuck on the taxiway. I would not be surprised if it's a gear-up landing.

I went flying today and it was rather uneventful. Checked the gear on base and final.

Edited September 7, 2020 by zaitcev

[kortopates]

On 9/6/2020 at 7:41 PM, zaitcev said:

How comes you guys aren't discussing a disabled Mooney blocking the only remaining runway today in Austin, Texas (KAUS)? I saw a picture on FB with 9 airliners stuck on the taxiway. I would not be surprised if it's a gear-up landing.

I went flying today and it was rather uneventful. Checked the gear on base and final.

The KAUS Mooney has yet to make it into the FAA's incident/accident reports which is odd

[kortopates]

This last weekend was apparently the "GEAR COLLAPSED ON LANDING" reported by 2 Mooney's - A C model at Riverton, WY and a A model at Carlsbad, NM - both reporting minor damage and no injuries.

Last week there was also the very successful off airport landing by an Ovation pilot onto a highway in the Everglades National Park - only to be hit by a distracted driver that was passing the Mooney and clipped its wing - Geesh!!

Edited September 14, 2020 by kortopates

[cliffy]

I wonder how Mooney's fare on a per-capita basis with other retractables on gear up landings. 

Are we (to quote an old song) "The Leader of the Pack"?

[carusoam]

22 minutes ago, cliffy said:

I wonder how Mooney's fare on a per-capita basis with other retractables on gear up landings. 

Are we (to quote an old song) "The Leader of the Pack"?

To be statistically separate from the rest of the pack....

Would mean our gear-up warning system isn’t working as expected...

They have either stopped working electrically, or the aural warning isn’t getting past the ears....

Somewhere in the early 90s Mooney started building the LBs and included electronic tones, that may even be introduced into the headsets... 
 

Somebody mentioned earlier that they couldn’t hear their warnings while wearing their noise cancelling head-sets....

 

So...

1) If our ears aren’t hearing the warnings... because we are wearing headsets...

2) Our warning system has broken down...

Or..

3) The system works really well, as designed, but under a heavy work load... it doesn’t get understood....

 

Makes we want to go fly and pull the throttle out to hear my GU alarm go off...  

 

We could set up a test, detail it... invite everyone to try it...

And answer the poll...  did you test it, Y/N?

How did it work?

Any issues?
 

Time to get excited about MS making a positive change... for the good of our insurance costs...

See where @Parker_Woodruff is on these ideas...

• Are Mooneys unique with respect to GU landings compared to other planes?
• Would a simple familiarization with the GU system in our planes help avoid a GU landing?
• Do newer Mooneys, 90s on, resist GU landings better than older Mooneys...

PP thoughts only, not an insurance guy...

Best regards,

-a-

[cliffy]

We seem to always focus on this or that maintenance issue or this new radio or how to change a tire when in reality, for the good of the fleet as a whole, maybe we need to REALLY focus on eliminating gear up incidents AS A GROUP.  Maybe this should be THE TOPIC at all gatherings of Mooneys.

This affects everyone in one  way or another. 

Too many times I see "the gear collapsed on landing" when in  reality it was never down. 

Maybe we need some real statistics about collapse vs "I forgot to put it down". Maybe we need to do this as a fleet exercise. 

I have seen gear rigging WAY off specs. We know that most A&Ps don't have the tools or the expertise to do a proper gear rigging (and most owners also have no clue) BUT we don't really know how many incidents are related to poor gear maintenance or the "I forgot" syndrome. Luckily once set properly it tends to remain OK except for wear.

Maybe its time to think of this in a fleet aspect instead of individual accidents.

Maybe even some new thinking like finding something like the old Bonzer Radar altimeters and converting its use to a gear warning aural announcement. The design is there, It might be simple to retool for a different purpose and supply them at a discount price for Mooney owners. Maybe one doesn't need to reinvent the wheel to accomplish the mission?  Just thinking outside the box. 

Maybe someone could take current automobile technology for automatic braking and turn it 90 degrees and use that for a gear warning system? NORSEE qualified no less!!!!

 

[Matt Ward]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

• Are Mooneys unique with respect to GU landings compared to other planes?
•  

This is something I've thought about too and I just don't know why it would be the case.  Rough back of the napkin math: according to Flightaware active flights, after controlling for all the big jets and non-comparables, Mooney's appear to be about 2% of all active flights.  That doesn't necessarily mean 2% of the active GA fleet, but it's a starting point.  Looking at NTSB data for 2010 to present, airplanes, part 91, non-owner built, landing phase, and with the word "collapsed" in them, there are 666 incidents.  Filter that for Mooneys and it's just 14 - which seems shockingly low given this thread and probably means my data sleuthing isn't that great but hopefully the insight holds directionally - that's about 2% too.  So very quick and dirty, it doesn't seem like Mooneys are obviously more likely to land gear up given their relative mix of the population.

Having said that, I'm 100% with @cliffy that a coordinated behavior change plan is warranted as this issue continually gets cited viz insurance rates.  And honestly MS probably has the scale to make this happen as much a different org like MAPA or even AOPA.

[Parker_Woodruff]

2 hours ago, carusoam said:

 

See where @Parker_Woodruff is on these ideas...

• Are Mooneys unique with respect to GU landings compared to other planes?
• Would a simple familiarization with the GU system in our planes help avoid a GU landing?
• Do newer Mooneys, 90s on, resist GU landings better than older Mooneys...

PP thoughts only, not an insurance guy...

Best regards,

-a-

- Anecdotally, I've seen more maintenance-induced gear failures lately.

- Possibly

- It seems this is an "it depends" answer.  Probably a bit.

[RobertGary1]

On 5/12/2020 at 7:51 PM, Hoeschen said:

Valid points, I suppose it’s most likely these situations that will cause a gear up. An IMC approach also comes to mind, diligence to use a checklist will help.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sometimes I’ll offer atc 140 knots down the ils to avoid waiting 20 minutes for the airline traffic to die down. That means coming down gear up and slowing and dropping it lower.  Some situations you have to recognize and be extra vigilant. But I’m not perfect and not fooling enough to believe it can’t happen to me. 
 

-Robert 

[gsxrpilot]

I've been doing touch and goes for the last few days... from all kinds of landings... fingers crossed I don't make Kathrine's list.

[cliffy]

49 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I've been doing touch and goes for the last few days...

Standing by with a bag of popcorn to watch the coming movie :-)

[philiplane]

9-11-20 M20A gear collapsed on landing, Carlsbad, NM

9-12-20 M20C gear collapsed on landing, Riverton, WY

Out of six gear incidents in a report with 29 total aircraft incidents, two are Mooneys. So they represent a third of the gear incidents on one day's summary. That's not good.

Edited September 15, 2020 by philiplane

[MooneyMitch]

Maybe I’ll return my D/C model back to a D model! 

[cliffy]

Speaking of fixed gear Mooneys

I have an idea to float but maybe it needs a new thread

I'll start it       "Fixed Gear Mooney Market"

[carusoam]

Fixed gear Mooneys are so safe...

The insurance companies pay you an annual payment...

 

The nose wheel of the fixed gear Mooney is so strong... you get four bounces before the nose wheel collapses...

 

If the gear on my fixed gear Mooney actually collapses... I would have to sneak into MS under an assumed name....

1) Everyone will know what happened...

2) Something would give me away...

3) It would take me a few posts to improve my disguise...

PP thoughts only, my best attempts at comedy... clearly not a comedian...

Best regards,

-a-