Has Harrison Crossed The Line ?

[jlunseth]

3 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

Have I ever done something stupid with an instructor on board? Does landing at the wrong airport qualify?

 

That is pretty hard to do if you have GPS. But even the big iron has done it, a Delta jet put down at Ellsworth AFB instead of KRAP.  They are very close together and you see Ellsworth first coming from the east, easy mistake to make if you are not familiar.

[flyboy0681]

3 minutes ago, jlunseth said:

That is pretty hard to do if you have GPS. But even the big iron has done it, a Delta jet put down at Ellsworth AFB instead of KRAP.  They are very close together and you see Ellsworth first coming from the east, easy mistake to make if you are not familiar.

This was in the pre-GPS days. In the interest of full disclosure, the instructor set me up for the situation, so he knew what he was doing. It was near Sonoma, California.

[Ibra]

39 minutes ago, steingar said:

I make way more and dumber mistakes with a CFI on board

Everybody can claim that badge, my landings are silk when I am 1SOB 

I guess it is not good for people to change their way of flying because instructor is onboard (getting too distracted), or instructor insisting on them to do things their way (learning new way of flying), or them not taking flying seriously because an instructor will save the show (getting too reliant)  

At the end of the day, one just need a "safe standard" + ability to recognise/correct errors, this is what people would refer to as "can I let him fly my grandmother?" 
(just don't ask the grandmother, she will be happy to fly with HF )

Edited May 1, 2020 by Ibra

[flyboy0681]

8 minutes ago, Ibra said:

... or instructor insisting on them to do things their way (learning new way of flying), or them not taking flying seriously because an instructor will save the show (getting to reliant)  

 

Man did you hit home with that remark. 20 years ago I was being checked out locally and the instructor insisted that I do things his way, this after years of developing my own flying habits. He signed me off and I never used him again. For those of you who fly in South Florida, I believe his name was Ed Crowder.

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, flyboy0681 said:

Have I ever done something stupid with an instructor on board? Does landing at the wrong airport qualify?

 

Well it does count as an error - and it can be quite an error of you are a pro flying some heavy iron and you make that mistake.  There are numerous such mistakes such as passenger planes, and even this big guy who landed in a GA airstrip - oops!

 

[kortopates]

I wouldn't be so hard on him.  After hearing the tape I had the same reaction as some that the phraseology contributed to this. I think he heard "Continue..." and confirmation bias prevented him from hearing the "holding short". I am not excusing him, but I get how "continue" can make it easy to err. I am not a controller by any stretch, but I can't say I've ever heard a hold short instruction quite like that - only "hold short..." so I looked up the phraseology per the controllers Order 7110.65Y which is addressed in 3-7-1. It also only uses the term "Hold Short...". I am not blaming the controller, but I get the human factors that led to this and feel in hindsight its not a good choice of words to use "Continue holding..." and thus there is something to be learned by both sides on this. What I have heard in similar situations is, "Negative, HOLD RWY XX" which I do believe could have made a difference here. 

As pilots we make split second decisions all the time, its really important we strive to recognize we have many cognitive biases that can predispose us to such error and be more careful to slow down and make sure our biases are not clouding our judgement; especially in an emergency which this was not.

You can read the section here: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/atc_html/chap3_section_7.html

Edited May 1, 2020 by kortopates

[MB65E]

Controller used incorrect phraseology.

-Matt

[Guest]

2 hours ago, steingar said:

I find CFIs distracting, even when they do their sit there and be quiet routine.  I make way more and dumber mistakes with a CFI on board.

And with other non flying pilots who have nothing better to do than chatter away while you’re busy.  Pilots make the worst passengers.

Clarence

 

[LANCECASPER]

6 hours ago, jlunseth said:

That is pretty hard to do if you have GPS. But even the big iron has done it, a Delta jet put down at Ellsworth AFB instead of KRAP.  They are very close together and you see Ellsworth first coming from the east, easy mistake to make if you are not familiar.

This is not the only time Delta has done that.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1987-07-08-mn-2686-story.html

Plus back in the 90's a Delta flight landed at the wrong NYC airport.

That's where the acronym for DELTA was defined 

Don't

Ever

Land

There

Again

[carusoam]

@kortopates Paul,

The link didn’t go to the right place...?   https://www.faa.gov/.../atpubs/atc_html/chap3_section_7.html

I tried to liven it up...

Best regards,

-a-

[kortopates]

28 minutes ago, carusoam said:

@kortopates Paul,

The link didn’t go to the right place...?   https://www.faa.gov/.../atpubs/atc_html/chap3_section_7.html

I tried to liven it up...

Best regards,

-a-

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/atc_html/chap3_section_7.html 

I'll re-paste that above to hopefully correct it, thanks for letting me know.

[PTK]

 Leave HF alone! He doesn't owe any explanations! He acknowledged his honest mistake and apologized. And no one was hurt. Did the controller also publicly apologize for his mistake? Who is giving him a number to call for his deviation? Giving such a totally superfluous, unnecessary and confusing instruction? HF was holding short. It was the controller’s goofy instruction that initiated the confusion. I am not blaming the controller and certainly not blaming HF. 

[MooneyMitch]

48 minutes ago, PTK said:

Leave HF alone! He doesn't owe any explanations! He acknowledged his honest mistake and apologized. And no one was hurt. Did the controller also publicly apologize for his mistake? Who is giving him a number to call for his deviation? Giving such a totally superfluous, unnecessary and confusing instruction? HF was holding short. It was the controller’s goofy instruction that initiated the confusion. I am not blaming the controller and certainly not blaming HF. 

Yeah, leave Indiana alone..... I agree!    

[DXB]

I wonder if the controller has any latitude in not writing up a true incursion on an active runway with landing traffic. I suspect not, even if this one wasn't really a close call? If he'd had the option, I suspect he might have preferred not to draw attention to his nonstandard phraseology either.  

Then again, I've personally had an incursion albeit under different circumstances, even less in the ballpark of a close call. It was at hotspot 4 - where there the 26 hold short line is, not lit and only marked on the pavement!  It was at nightfall in torrential rain, and I was taxiing up with a plan to hold until a thunderstorm finished passing over the field. My brain didn't really register the concept of a hold short line there until as I was crossing over it, and I never came close to actually entering the true runway.   All I got from the tower was an "um hold your position, I can't really see, but you might've crossed the hold short short line."  I was utterly mortified and profusely apologetic, but the controller was so chill and friendly about it, even let me sit there just past the line and idle while making small talk with me until the storm cleared.  I didn't even bother to put in a NASA report, but I was very embarrassed.  

 

[bradp]

Like an ILS critical area or are the hold short bars down on the taxiway? 

[N9201A]

I wouldn't be so hard on him.  After hearing the tape I had the same reaction as some that the phraseology contributed to this. I think he heard "Continue..." and confirmation bias prevented him from hearing the "holding short". I am not excusing him, but I get how "continue" can make it easy to err. I am not a controller by any stretch, but I can't say I've ever heard a hold short instruction quite like that - only "hold short..." so I looked up the phraseology per the controllers Order 7110.65Y which is addressed in 3-7-1. It also only uses the term "Hold Short...". I am not blaming the controller, but I get the human factors that led to this and feel in hindsight its not a good choice of words to use "Continue holding..." and thus there is something to be learned by both sides on this. What I have heard in similar situations is, "Negative, HOLD RWY XX" which I do believe could have made a difference here. 
As pilots we make split second decisions all the time, its really important we strive to recognize we have many cognitive biases that can predispose us to such error and be more careful to slow down and make sure our biases are not clouding our judgement; especially in an emergency which this was not.
You can read the section here: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/atc_html/chap3_section_7.html

Good point and another illustration of why the stress on using the correct terminology. Another example is using “cleared” for anything other than “cleared for take-off/landing”. I’ve lost count how many pilots I’ve heard read back an instruction to “cross runway X” as “cleared across runway X...all while the pilot lined up and waiting on runway X is just waiting to launch upon hearing “cleared.”

Mr. Ford is a fantastic ambassador for aviation who’s done countless great things to promote us all. Being even one of Han Solo, Indiana Jones, Rick Deckard, Jack Ryan or Dr. Richard Kimball would generate attention, I can’t imagine the heat from being all of them...and more.

Suggest those beating the “he’s missing a step” drum lay off, lest someone starts pulling your tapes and dissecting them. Anyone can have an off day, much less an off moment or few.

[MooneyMitch]

Don’t forget President James Marshall!!!

[Yooper Rocketman]

I find it a little disheartening that a guy that’s been such a strong advocate of GA, supported the EAA Young Eagles program, and is not cocky or arrogant because of his success in show business, has some in our fold so quick to chop his legs out from under him.  If he wasn’t so well known, none of the incidents he has had, besides the golf course one (which was pretty good airmanship), would have ever made news anywhere.   HE’S CERTAINLY NOT TRIED TO BE IN THE SPOTLIGHT in regards to his flying.  He just loves aviation like the rest of us.  
I don’t recall EVER hearing “continue” used in an instruction that didn’t involve moving or action with my plane.  Certainly not proper phraseology for holding short.  
 

I totally agree with Paul @kortopates
 

Tom

[DXB]

11 hours ago, bradp said:

Like an ILS critical area or are the hold short bars down on the taxiway? 

hold short bars on the taxiway, a LONG distance from the runway

[ArtVandelay]

Everyone makes mistakes.  The FAA policy is retraining (online), in this case they might  decide to have both pilot and controller do it.

 

[Mooney in Oz]

On 5/1/2020 at 8:51 PM, Ibra said:

Also nice picture of a Mooney Bravo, that reg seems to belong to a Boeing 767 captain?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-8269531/Harrison-Ford-77-investigation-Federal-Aviation-Administration.html

Does anyone else think the guy without the hat looks like HF? I thought it was him when I first saw the pic.

The controller definitely contributed to the incident.  A telephone conversation should have been the end of the matter.

[MooneyMitch]

2 minutes ago, Mooney in Oz said:

Does anyone else think the guy without the hat looks like HF? I thought it was him when I first saw the pic.

The controller definitely contributed to the incident.  A telephone conversation should have been the end of the matter.

Nope........looks like Han Solo to

me ! 

[toto]

24 minutes ago, Mooney in Oz said:

Does anyone else think the guy without the hat looks like HF? I thought it was him when I first saw the pic.

Wait, it's definitely 100% HF, right? I thought that's why this photo was here?

[MooneyMitch]

Just now, toto said:

Wait, it's definitely 100% HF, right? I thought that's why this photo was here?

No, not HF!  Looks like Indiana Jones to me ! 

[toto]

Ha. Yep, the Daily Mail says it's him from 2010. Nice that someone else's Mooney features prominently (as well as, presumably, HF's MG).