Airplane ownership CV19

[MooneyMitch]

A reality check....................Enjoy please.

 

[Seymour]

On 4/30/2020 at 4:05 PM, David_H said:

On 4/30/2020 at 3:32 PM, Shadrach said:

It has nothing to do with why the state of Maine is still closed. Maine is just one of many examples. Again I ask. If the goal lockdown was to prevent the hospital system from becoming overwhelmed And low density population areas show no signs I’ve been anywhere near a fraction of capacity much less overwhelmed, what is the reason for the lockdown?

The answer to this question would put most other questions on this issue to rest. This question has been asked over and over... in many different ways. Why is this fundamental question not the focus of conversation?

I agree that this is a fundamental question and suggest these as possible answers and points for discussion:

1.  As NYC quickly became a hotspot, many people decided to travel away from the Big Apple rather than ride it out locally.   This quickly led to nearby vacation (eg. coastal and rural communities where NYC residents owned second homes) to see a migration of travelers .     ...so rural and remote areas are attractive places for travel and although they currently have very few cases, they could quickly become overwhelmed because their healthcare resources are much smaller than the metro areas.

2. Locking down an entire state and enforcing rules uniformly across the state prevents   a.)  People living in the rural areas that would not be subject to the lockdown from commuting in and out of a hotspot and spreading the disease to places that aren't currently affected.   b.)  Creating an even larger reason for residents within the hotspot to 'escape the lockdown' to where they can be free - and quickly spread the disease in doing so.  

 

[tmo]

On 4/22/2020 at 2:35 PM, Yooper Rocketman said:

She is VERY CONCERNED with what she is seeing.  Reminds her of her childhood days more than she wants to remember.

Good thing she's not here now.  But I guess she probably reads / watches the news, so she now what's playing.

[bonal]

Another two weeks have passed since my last rant and as time goes on I see more evidence that my fears are justified. Moving the goal posts has become a new normal. Here in Lake County we have maintained a total of eight cases all fully recovered out of 64 thousand residents. People have been going to all the essential businesses and been in close contact with none of the employees becoming infected and no community spread. Rural areas have not seen an uptick of cases states that have begun re opening have not seen an uptick.  But we have seen an attack on our freedom and now with contact tracing going into effect our forth amendment will also be under attack.  I want to once again compliment the people that have expressed their thoughts on this thread for keeping political views in check but it is very clear that this virus has been turned into a political weapon. We were told the need to flatten the curve to prevent over demand of medical facilities which we have done many hospitals are now in jeopardy of closing because their beds are empty and revenue is way down.  LA says they won't re open until the end of summer. Dr Fauci is saying we should not hold school even in the fall.  Cal State University saying there may be no classes even in the Fall.  UC is recommending that all pre registration testing like SAT's no longer be required because of COVID what the hell does that have to do with a virus. On and on it goes. Oh by the way do any of you have a trillion dollars I can borrow. 

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, bonal said:

Another two weeks have passed since my last rant and as time goes on I see more evidence that my fears are justified. ...UC is recommending that all pre registration testing like SAT's no longer be required because of COVID what the hell does that have to do with a virus. On and on it goes. Oh by the way do any of you have a trillion dollars I can borrow. 

Well there is plenty of time to rant more.

But really - you have no idea what SATs have to do with anything?  And this is what is making you angry?  There are kids around the country who have missed SAT dates because of states lock down.  Whether or not you agree with the lock down is not relevant to the fact that many kids have missed testing dates. So how fair would it be to restrict their admissions to whether or not they took an SAT that was not offered on a date that they were aiming at - this would be some kind of catch 22 for all sorts of kids who are stressing about getting into college?

Here is a funny aside.  Do you remember Malala - the young lady who won a Nobel Peace Prize at age 17?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malala_Yousafzai  She applied to college after having won the Nobel Peace Prize.  How is that for unusual and superior extra curricular activities?  Well of course she got into every school she applied to and she is a continuing student still at Oxford University.  Well she was not accepted to Stanford University since they would not even consider her case unless she took the SAT - no exception - not even for a Nobel Prize winner.  Oh well - their loss.

[bonal]

No I said what does it have to do with a virus. The proposal was not short term but permanent. College placement exams are very important and I can't accept that our university system can't come up with a way to administer these tests in a safe way so that kids can determine where they will be able to continue their education. IMHO a very essential service. Also statistics one of you areas of expertise shows extremely low incidence of covid mortality in young people. Probably less than students killing themselves due to stress from an uncertain future. 

[bonal]

Just another example of the massive over reach of our freedom 

[aviatoreb]

5 minutes ago, bonal said:

No I said what does it have to do with a virus. The proposal was not short term but permanent. College placement exams are very important and I can't accept that our university system can't come up with a way to administer these tests in a safe way so that kids can determine where they will be able to continue their education. IMHO a very essential service. Also statistics one of you areas of expertise shows extremely low incidence of covid mortality in young people. Probably less than students killing themselves due to stress from an uncertain future. 

Actually - being in the college business - as a professor - I will be the first to say, I have always found the SATs to be quite a racket.  They sell mediocre standardized exams (mediocre to test for predicting success in college).  They charge you to forward them to schools.  They let you take them again for an extra fee.  You can take standardized area tests.  They sell you material to help you practice for the tests.  There have been for decades discussions of getting away from them.  If this event finally serves as the impetus for a sea change that should have happened years ago, then I am all for it.  

Separate, I think having deferred SATs for the upcoming students is the right move, remember that students have already missed dates, during these past two months, and the current month at least - remember NY State is still in lockdown and for good reason since whatever is happening in your county, there are kids in New York City who may be superb candidates to go to school in California (I went to UC Berkeley as an out of state freshman from Maryland many years ago) - as are other states, so yet another month of tests will be missed.  I mean for those applying for Fall 2021, but also those applying for Fall of 2020. The process is already mucked up and I find the action to just omit the SAT's from the process to be just smart facing of the situation as it stands today.  So I am fully supportive of nixing the SATs for these students - again whether or not we agree on everything that has been happening with shut downs, diseases and so forth, this has already impacted the entrance exams process.

 

[aviatoreb]

10 minutes ago, bonal said:

Just another example of the massive over reach of our freedom 

Is that a reaction to missed opportunity to take the SATs and to have them to be considered as part of the college admission process?  Or was it something else.

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, bonal said:

Oh by the way do any of you have a trillion dollars I can borrow. 

Tell the Speaker of the House you need it to start a weed farm, she’ll get it for you!

[ilovecornfields]

@bonal, we appreciate your temporary restraint and I think we all get that you’re frustrated. Several of us (myself included) have spent hours attempting to explain the reasoning behind the choices that were made at the time and what the alternatives were.

I agree that there are no perfect rules and what is best for SF may not be best for some rural counties. California is a big state in terms of area, population and economic influence and it’s a very heterogenous place. I’m sure you understand that.

College entrance exams have been controversial for quite a long time, even before COVID. I think @aviatoreb gave an excellent example of one of the issues that has been raised regarding standardized tests for college admissions.

Yes, all segments of the economy are being affected - even the hospitals.

I’m not going to engage with you on a political discussion on this forum. I’ve offered to speak with you privately if you have any medical or epidemiological concerns that I might help you understand, but I think it’s pretty clear that the rants are counterproductive. I’m frustrated too, but I’m sharing my frustrations in different settings. 
 

Edit: Just to clarify, I’m not trying to pick on @bonal. I think we all share his frustrations and welcome his contributions. I’m just trying to prevent the conversation from deteriorating like it did last time I made a political comment.

Edited May 15, 2020 by ilovecornfields

[aviatoreb]

Just now, N201MKTurbo said:

Tell the Speaker of the House you need it to start a weed farm, she’ll get it for you!

Herbert Hoover says it will all work out and nothing needs to be done.

Actually all sorts of businesses have gotten stimulus loans.  Hotels.  Airlines.  Strip clubs.  That I have read about.  I bet some weed companies too.  I don't know.  If a business is legal then I don't see a way to leave that specific business out of a stimulus if it is for all takers.  If it is target say to the airline industry or to the shipping industry then sure.  Separate - we can all decide or discuss if we are about to fall into a great depression or not, whether stimulus is worth the trouble or merited.  But weed has nothing to do with it and you don't seriously think Speaker Pelosi is pushing a weed farm bill.  So just come out and say you don't want to see any more stimulus for anything and we shall just ride this economy and see what happens if that is your position.

[N201MKTurbo]

5 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Herbert Hoover says it will all work out and nothing needs to be done.

Actually all sorts of businesses have gotten stimulus loans.  Hotels.  Airlines.  Strip clubs.  That I have read about.  I bet some weed companies too.  I don't know.  If a business is legal then I don't see a way to leave that specific business out of a stimulus if it is for all takers.  If it is target say to the airline industry or to the shipping industry then sure.  Separate - we can all decide or discuss if we are about to fall into a great depression or not, whether stimulus is worth the trouble or merited.  But weed has nothing to do with it and you don't seriously think Speaker Pelosi is pushing a weed farm bill.  So just come out and say you don't want to see any more stimulus for anything and we shall just ride this economy and see what happens if that is your position.

https://thehill.com/business-a-lobbying/business-a-lobbying/497381-anti-pot-group-bashes-the-house-for-including

[aviatoreb]

Just now, N201MKTurbo said:

https://thehill.com/business-a-lobbying/business-a-lobbying/497381-anti-pot-group-bashes-the-house-for-including

Well - ok.  Pro pot.  Anti-pot. This is a separate issue.  Let's not crash the economy by postponing stimulus for the next many months while the dozens and dozens of issues with two sides spitting at each other over unresolved long standing topical issues become resolved and rolled into what would otherwise be a fight.  E.g. pro pot, anti-pot, whatever I don't really care - but if I call the fire department to put a fire out in my house I hope we don't have to resolve the pot issue before they show up.  And so many other issues.  Now if we/you/I don't believe any stimulus is needed or merited, then fine decide on that directly.  Pointing at pot as a reason is a red herring.

[bonal]

Look I understand most of you disagree with my concerns regarding the one size fits all elimination of our constitutional rights in the name of safety and a perfect solution to this problem. I will accept that my SAT was a bad example. But do you think it's a good idea for cal state to cancel schools in the fall.  My county is a very poor county and was barely hanging on before this pandemic I doubt that our small businesses will ever re open. And can you please explain to me why 66% of COVID deaths in NY city were people that were observing mitigation requirements. Did all the kids that went on spring break and were climbing all over each other end up dying from their behavior. We've all seen the videos.  It is my opinion that the cure has become worse than the disease.  I truly believe the death count has been grossly inflated. Do I believe this virus is real yes do I believe it is a deadly as has been reported well let's just say I have my doubts.

My comments and responses have been respectful to everyone that has taken the time to express there opinion and first hand knowledge about these most troubled times.

[aviatoreb]

25 minutes ago, bonal said:

Look I understand most of you disagree with my concerns regarding the one size fits all elimination of our constitutional rights in the name of safety and a perfect solution to this problem.

I don't disagree with you that constitutional rights should not be disregarded.  I just disagree with you what constitutes elimination of constitutional rights.  There have been wide scale quarantines in the past, 1918 included.  There have been mass drafts into the army.  These have withstood constitutional challenges.  That is the process.  Challenge an order and the constitution provides a process to decide the challenge. No constitutional rights are absolute.  None.  Laws limit rights.  Some laws are too strong and become challenged and successfully over turned, and others are not.  Executive orders of many kinds have been imposed in emergencies in the past, and some withstand challenges and some not.  Just declaring that executive orders as a matter of course are forbidden for sake of the constitution has not held up.  Some have, some have not.  The question will always be where is the limit.

I also live in a very poor county.  I worry tremendously about my neighbors.  There are a number of people whom we normally buy services from that we have continued to pay even though we are not taking the services.  I worry about my town.  Will it decline significantly.  But, Honestly, I worry about my own future employment, which for now is holding.  

Whatever we think about the disease, there will be a massive economic change, whether or not states are open.  People will change their behavior for some time to come, and it is their right to do so, constitutionally. Whether or not you think they are being silly, scared, or whatever, some people will stay home and therefore not go to the mall, the restaurants, and so forth.  This is summarized tongue in cheek by this little ditty form the onion -  Florida Governor Deploys National Guard To Force Residents Back Into Malls, Movie Theaters - https://www.theonion.com/florida-governor-deploys-national-guard-to-force-reside-1843463980 

blame Pelosi, blame Trump, blame democrats blame Republicans, blame the Chineese or the Governor of Michigan, or SATs or blame the weed stores, or who ever we want, this thing is bigger than any human alone.  

Edited May 15, 2020 by aviatoreb

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

Well - ok.  Pro pot.  Anti-pot. This is a separate issue.  Let's not crash the economy by postponing stimulus for the next many months while the dozens and dozens of issues with two sides spitting at each other over unresolved long standing topical issues become resolved and rolled into what would otherwise be a fight.  E.g. pro pot, anti-pot, whatever I don't really care - but if I call the fire department to put a fire out in my house I hope we don't have to resolve the pot issue before they show up.  And so many other issues.  Now if we/you/I don't believe any stimulus is needed or merited, then fine decide on that directly.  Pointing at pot as a reason is a red herring.

I was just making fun of the Speaker. 

I hope there is no more stimulus. Just let people get back to normal and they will take care of themselves.

[aviatoreb]

10 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I was just making fun of the Speaker. 

I hope there is no more stimulus. Just let people get back to normal and they will take care of themselves.

People are going back to work.  States are already opening.  Time will tell if the economic situation corrects or the economic damage is already done.  How people will behave on their own, and what will happen in terms of public health.

These are serious times.  Saying outrageous things as a matter of discussion about serious topics has gotten pretty old to these ears.  I don't mean to pick on you specifically.  I am just saying that when you have something serious to say, your argument becomes spoiled that way.  This argument style has become modeled a lot lately in government and in tv but it doesn't make it a good idea or effective.  Or maybe it is effective.  We shall see what happens in the elections.  Meanwhile these are seriously troubled times, and I prefer to approach it that way.  I feel it will be needed with or without people getting back to work.  I agree with the speaker that stimulus is needed in various areas or we will see hospitals closed, police force and fire department personnel laid off, and so on, and I support the speaker pushing stimulus to shore up this bad economy before it becomes a permanent fixture for the next decade.  Saying she supports weed shops is a motive for her has no relevance and no truth.  Let us agree to disagree that stimulus will no longer be needed and leave it at that.

Edited May 15, 2020 by aviatoreb

[bonal]

You can't just keep printing money without a way to pay down the debt. This may cause a death spiral with no way to recover because the wings have already come off. Look I hope I'm wrong about my concerns and if time bears that out I will be the first to admit it.

[aviatoreb]

7 minutes ago, bonal said:

You can't just keep printing money without a way to pay down the debt. This may cause a death spiral with no way to recover because the wings have already come off. Look I hope I'm wrong about my concerns and if time bears that out I will be the first to admit it.

House is on fire.  Choose your poison.  If the economy is 1929 then the only thing that would stop that show is printing money.  If it is on the verge of 1929, then all those laid off people will stay permanently unemployed.  If the economy is really 2019, then printing money will create damage all by itself.  As you said, one of these choices will be made and then time will bear out which was the right choice.  Check back in 3 years and the looser buys the other guy a pizza. Unless we are both unemployed in which case I will give you a high five and a congratulations if I loose.

[Andy95W]

2 hours ago, bonal said:

Look I understand most of you disagree with my concerns regarding the one size fits all 

I definitely agree it's probably time to stop looking at this state-by-state, and more probably county-by-county, with a one county buffer.

Here in Michigan, Detroit needs to stay locked down.  Up in the Upper Peninsula, it probably needs to be wide-open ( @Yooper Rocketman can probably chime in).  One size definitely  does not fit all.

[N201MKTurbo]

I'm pretty sure I had the Covid 19 back in January, before it was cool to have it.

Yes we have people who go to China, We have people who interact with Chinese nationals locally. The first day there were two people out sick. The next day there were about 5 people out. At the morning meetings I said "I hope I don't get it" at 10:00 AM I was heading home, felt like hell! It took me about 12 days to get over it. I told my wife (who got it too) it was the worse flu I have had in about 40 years. When I went back to work, there was nobody there. They were all out sick. It got 50 out of 75 people! Well we all made it, didn't loose a single one.

People have been getting sick sense the beginning of time. I think at least around here that it burned through here before the world went insane!

If the only thing saving us from the natural diseases that have been terrorizing humanity sense the beginning of time is the US federal government, then we are all doomed!

I have a feeling that before the age of the internet and the smart phone, this would have been second section stuff in the local paper...

 

[Ross Taylor]

7 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

House is on fire.

The problem is...my house isn't on fire.   I do understand that there are hotspots and vulnerable population groups, but we don't need to shut down the Flagstaff businesses because of a "fire" in another state.  I didn't ask the government to save me.

[aviatoreb]

4 hours ago, Ross Taylor said:

The problem is...my house isn't on fire.   I do understand that there are hotspots and vulnerable population groups, but we don't need to shut down the Flagstaff businesses because of a "fire" in another state.  I didn't ask the government to save me.

We don’t have a pandemic or an economic crisis  I meant the pandemic  AND the economy.   The problem is we don’t get to choose one or the other we have both no matter what any politician or tv talking head says.  If every place is open today the economy won’t behave like its 2019 since people will spend differently.  Blame aside we cannnot just wish that away no matter how many people in Wisconsin want to go to the bar, many many don’t Want to go to the bar even in Wisconsin,

and the national economy flies or falls together.  If a goodly fraction of people don’t want to go on vacation this summer then car manufacturers in Detroit suffer and airplane manufacturers in Washington state suffer and fuel production industry in Texas and sorry I’m winging it.., something in Arizona. And all the follow on businesses. Restaurants. Bars.  The Grand Canyon. It’s all bound together by a national economy.

Edited May 16, 2020 by aviatoreb

[bonal]

I can only speak for myself but as soon as there are sit down restaurants open hear locally we will pay them a visit. Have been doing the take out since this began. As soon as the hotels open here in CA we will take Snoopy and pay them a visit. When the retailers will be allowed to have shopping inside their doors we will hit them up for some serious retailing.  

Edited May 16, 2020 by bonal