Landings

[Blue moon]

 Hello everyone

I have been following Mooney Space for about a month and greatly appreciate the expertise and insight all of the members provide. Just purchased a 1979 M20J and have about 6 hrs and 20 landings and have gotten a comfortable feel for it, though not yet “proficient”. I have  1500 hrs PIC time in a Grumman Cheetah and instrument rating and found the transition to the M20J with an instructor a bit difficult at first but now things are coming together. I have found landings to be less difficult than expected, probably because the Grummans are notorious for floating in ground effect when air speeds are not adhered to closely, so I’m used to being sure of when I’m in ground effect and can put the Mooney’s mains on the pavement pretty well. However I find the nosewheel hits very quickly and a bit hard even with maximum back pressure after the mains hit. I’ve tried to vary the airspeed and also add a little power just before touchdown but can’t seem  to get it right just yet. My reflexes may need to be a little quicker or more precise but I wonder if there are some techniques the more experienced of you have come to rely on. I am worried that the nosewheel may be getting more stress than necessary and would greatly appreciate any suggestions. I’m sure more practice will help but if I can get an idea about what to practice I think it would help  

Thanks

David

 

Edited March 18, 2020 by Blue moon
Message

[Bob - S50]

Welcome David.

Sounds typical to me. In 7 years of flying our 78 J I've only been able to hold the nose off after landing about 3 or 4 times.

Just work toward touching down smoothly just as the stall warning starts chirping at you.

Have fun.

Bob

[dzeleski]

I tend to land a bit flat now which keeps the nose wheel closer to the ground. Makes it easier to hold it off and when it does come down it has less distance to travel which makes it softer. I dont use full back pressure.

I went from hearing the stall horn just as I touch down to never hearing it. I get very consistent results like this, but your airspeed on final needs to be on the dot.

[PT20J]

First, congratulations on your purchase. And, for being proof that Mooneys are not hard to land. We discussed this issue a while back. It’s not you.

Skip

[Hank]

@Blue moon, when you learn the secret to regularly holding the nose wheel up after touchdown, please share it with us! I'd certainly like to know, I only have a little over 800 hours in my Mooney . . . . .

[Bolter]

4 hours ago, Blue moon said:

...However I find the nosewheel hits very quickly and a bit hard even with maximum back pressure after the mains hit....

Those are subjective terms.  Based on your experience, you are probably better than you think.  As you are new to the Mooney, and transition instruction can vary, a ride with someone else in their Mooney may help you get a sense of how far off you are from "normal".  List your location in your profile, and maybe trade flights to observe and be observed.  If you are in the Seattle area, I will volunteer to meet up with you.  I am not a CFI, but I have landed a lot :-)

My personal pointers:

1. Airspeed control (as others said)
2. Like other planes, CG makes a difference to me.  I make better landings with back seats loaded. 
3. Well lubed controls help with the fine adjustments as you get real slow and flare, IMHO.  "The best you know is the best you tried".  Your new Mooney may like some maintenance.  

And my usual plug for going to a MAPA PPP clinic this year.  Get rides with several experienced instructors as well as the class time.  

February 7-9 Lakeland, FL
April 17-19 Santa Fe, NM
June 12-14 Fort Worth, TX
Sept. 11-13 Springfield/Chicopee, MA
October 2-4 Wichita, KS

[HIghpockets]

I fly an 1988 J. I understand your experience.  What has worked for me is first nailing the approach speed over the numbers, that is, 70kts. Second developing a consistent sight picture by looking down the runway. Third, I recite to myself as I flare and rollup the  electric trim "keep it flying, keep it flying". I try to hold if off the runway as long as I can.

I am no expert nor am I a CFI. Just trying to help.

[midlifeflyer]

1 minute ago, HIghpockets said:

I fly an 1988 J. I understand your experience.  What has worked for me is first nailing the approach speed over the numbers, that is, 70kts. Second developing a consistent sight picture by looking down the runway. Third, I recite to myself as I flare and rollup the  electric trim "keep it flying, keep it flying". I try to hold if off the runway as long as I can.

I am no expert nor am I a CFI. Just trying to help.

One cannot overemphasize the importance of developing a sight picture from final to touchdown.  When I see a pilot having difficulties, it is usually from fixating on the airspeed indicator rather than looking out the window. My standard "cure" is to cover the ASI to force the pilot to look out the window.  

Also while we eventually "just do it," for training purpose, the transition from looking at your target while on final to a point further down the runway typically needs to be a conscious event. I use a slight variation of the the common "far end of the runway" focus point. Land on a 12,000' runway and all that does is create a new fixation and degrade our peripheral vision. Instead, borrowing from standard motorcycle training, I recommend a point about 12 seconds ahead. The motorcycle rationale is, in addition to allowing the biker to see potential problems developing, it also gives a good sense of balance and position on the road. Not universal by any means, but I find that for most, it does the same for a pilot. Gives a good sense of speed, height and lateral position. They even land on the centerline (or at least straddle it)! At our landing speed that's about 1500' ahead, give or take a few hundred feet. 

[carusoam]

welcome aboard Blue...

Often something called transition training helps with the finer details of flying a Mooney...

TT is about the specifics it’s not retraining or learning how to fly...

MAPA also runs training courses that are about learning how to fly your Mooney... as precisely as you would ever want or need to...

Both methods help reduce some wacky... wish I knew that kind of moments... and can lower insurance rates...

Training is a cool short cut... and cost saver... and a safety enhancement...

Something to consider... 

Best regards,

-a-

[steingar]

Just keep after it, things will click in time.  Mooneys aren't difficult to land, but they can be a bit twitchy and not easily landed well.  Do pay attention, when mistreated Mooneys bite hard.

[Ibra]

Congrats for your new horse, landing will eventually click, maybe try to land it slightly flat instead of "3-point on its mains & tail"? (still aim for touch down at slow speeds without looking at ASI but don't end-up with stick fully back and 15deg nose up)

You will notice from front gear oscillations that it does not like to drop from 10ft on full back stick nor touch downs at slow speeds on very high nose

Touch down at high speeds is a big NO irrespective of nose position 

Edited March 18, 2020 by Ibra

[Blue moon]

Thanks everyone for the excellent advice. Comforting to know I’m not alone and the explanation of the aerodynamics and the physics regarding the landing gear cg/moment  changes on touchdown really helps. Over the next few months I’ll be working on this and about a million other things keeping in mind that the most important thing is a safe landing. 

David

[carusoam]

There are a few videos around here...

where MSers demonstrate their landing skills...

Extra points awarded to things like centerline control...

Speed control...

lightness of the touch down... chiiirp. Not the usual dull thud...

Expect to need to be really good at airspeed control to get what you are asking about...

At least know your airspeed in the final moments of touch down...

If doing your own recording... expect the stall horn to sound just prior to touching down...

Make sure the stall horn is working properly... first.

Lots of accurate WnB calcs really help.

A properly calibrated AOAi really shows the best results...

If you are really good/well practiced... ASI and VSI are all you need to set up the perfect situation...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Culver LFA]

8 hours ago, Hank said:

@Blue moon, when you learn the secret to regularly holding the nose wheel up after touchdown, please share it with us! I'd certainly like to know, I only have a little over 800 hours in my Mooney . . . . .

@Hank A successful technique that worked for me I started a few years ago. I just remind myself on short final how expensive all those little parts on the nose gear mechanism cost to overhaul and suddenly I developed the ability to touch down lightly on the mains and carry the nose wheel off the runway until full elevator will no longer hold it off!

Start shoving $100 bills in the seat back pocket every time you have a ‘firm’ landing, it’s amazing how fast bad habits will change!

The secret to any good landing is no secret, correct speed and trim, then try to hold it off the runway when you are down to the last inches of flight (don’t let the airplane settle by releasing back pressure and then drop).

[Hank]

@Culver LFA, I can land smooth,  but keeping the nose wheel in the air for longer than 1/2 second is difficult; doing so often is nigh onto impossible!

No, I don't roll onto the runway often, but I'm fairly smooth--chirp, chirp, chirp. In a Cessna, it's so easy to go chirp, chirp . . . . . . . . . . chirp.

But since I'm in annual, I can't go practice right now. At night with no wind, it's so easy . . .

[PT20J]

Things that help:

Be on speed, in trim.

Flare just enough so that the nose wheel is clear but don't try to land in a nose high, full stall. (Actually, this is the best way to land any high performance airplane. Ever see a 737 do a full stall landing?).

Some people roll in nose up trim during the flare, but I don't like this as it makes a go around difficult. Power causes a pitch up and flying out of ground effect causes a pitch up, and if you also have the trim nose up, you have a handful.

Skip

 

[carusoam]

Something to consider when adding trim during the last important phase of flight...

Often the end of the trim range is nearby...

While busy flying and trimming... will you notice the trim bump the end stop?

If it jams at the end... will you know it?

That can be a handful on the GA... while flying and problem solving....

There have not been a lot of jammed trim controls... but lots of grease rocks that have gotten in the way...

I use extra caution at either end of the trim range...

PP thoughts only...

Best regards,

-a-

[jaylw314]

Not an instructor here, but things worth testing out with an instructor as necessary:

• landing with half-flaps for more nose up attitude on touchdown
• trimming for a short-final speed of 66 KIAS with typical solo weight will give you more nose-elevator authority during the flare
• adding nose up trim during final, with the caveat of being prepared for immediate nose down pressure on a go-around

 

[Fry]

3 hours ago, PT20J said:

Flare just enough so that the nose wheel is clear but don't try to land in a nose high, full stall. (Actually, this is the best way to land any high performance airplane.

Skip, can you elaborate why?

[ArtVandelay]

Things that help:
Be on speed, in trim.
Flare just enough so that the nose wheel is clear but don't try to land in a nose high, full stall. (Actually, this is the best way to land any high performance airplane. Ever see a 737 do a full stall landing?).

Jets can arm spoilers to lose lift on landings, Mooney can’t. So while not in a full stall, the stall horn should be squeaking to insure it stays firmly on the ground.

[Shadrach]

8 hours ago, PT20J said:

Things that help:

Be on speed, in trim.

Flare just enough so that the nose wheel is clear but don't try to land in a nose high, full stall. (Actually, this is the best way to land any high performance airplane. Ever see a 737 do a full stall landing?).

Some people roll in nose up trim during the flare, but I don't like this as it makes a go around difficult. Power causes a pitch up and flying out of ground effect causes a pitch up, and if you also have the trim nose up, you have a handful.

Skip

 

You need to alert the Air Force that their fighter jocks are doing it all wrong...

I respect your opinions Skip, but I disagree with you on this one. Using a 737 in your analogy is as silly as my use of these F16s. The reality is that in most cases it’s best to arrive at the runway with the energy needed for flare + safe level of margin. Smooth landings can be executed at any speed. It’s not very difficult to fly an airplane onto a runway smoothly. Smooth full stall landings require more precision and are consistently achievable if one maintains currency. I find that it’s a skill that atrophies if I’m out of the cockpit for a month.

 

 

 

 

[Shadrach]

On 3/18/2020 at 9:53 AM, Blue moon said:

 Hello everyone

I have been following Mooney Space for about a month and greatly appreciate the expertise and insight all of the members provide. Just purchased a 1979 M20J and have about 6 hrs and 20 landings and have gotten a comfortable feel for it, though not yet “proficient”. I have  1500 hrs PIC time in a Grumman Cheetah and instrument rating and found the transition to the M20J with an instructor a bit difficult at first but now things are coming together. I have found landings to be less difficult than expected, probably because the Grummans are notorious for floating in ground effect when air speeds are not adhered to closely, so I’m used to being sure of when I’m in ground effect and can put the Mooney’s mains on the pavement pretty well. However I find the nosewheel hits very quickly and a bit hard even with maximum back pressure after the mains hit. I’ve tried to vary the airspeed and also add a little power just before touchdown but can’t seem  to get it right just yet. My reflexes may need to be a little quicker or more precise but I wonder if there are some techniques the more experienced of you have come to rely on. I am worried that the nosewheel may be getting more stress than necessary and would greatly appreciate any suggestions. I’m sure more practice will help but if I can get an idea about what to practice I think it would help  

Thanks

David

 

I’ve never thought of the 4cyl mid bodies as particularly nose heavy. I find That even during a mains only full stall landing I have enough elevator authority to hold the nose off for several hundred feet. If I hold the nose off until the elevator pays off completely the nose contacts the runway in a relatively gentle manner. 

Edited March 19, 2020 by Shadrach

[bob865]

I read these threads about landing mooneys over and over again and everyone talks about how hard it is.  I'll admit my first few where some of the worst landings of my life (since inital training that is), but I have also had the best landings of my life in my mooney.  I was never able to get a real greaser in my cherokee or the cessnas I used in primary training.  However I have had some truly spectacular landing in the mooney.  I My last landing during my insurance restriction was so smooth I never felt the plane touch the ground, the wheel just started rolling.

Maybe a few things to mention about the above, I did read plenty about landing mooneys before I started and knew about the importance of being on speed.  I am also crazy anal about stabilized, on speed, on glideslope approaches.  I go around if the sight picture isn't what I want to see.  I rarely fly a full stall landing. I almost always land with a little power until just before touchdown.  Upside of my approach....buttery smooth landings.  Downside.....I use way more runway that I could/should.  Because of this I avoid short runways becuase I don't have shortfield proficiency. I know my limitations and don't push it. I have started practicing short field so I can get into this airport with a BBQ place but is on a short runway, plus I need to improve my skills.  Since then, my landing have gotten more rough but I can also get down, slowed down, and exit the runway in less than 2000ft. Now I need to keep polishing my short field work to get them as smooth as 'normal' landings.

I'm done....Flame on.   

[Ibra]

43 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

You need to alert the Air Force that their fighter jocks are doing it all wrong...

They just like to land tail-hook or tailwheel first  when using too much runway is luxury, the aircraft gear and suspension does get beefed-up and fully stalled is the name of the game...

On fast tricycles, I think smooth flat landing require less skills than fully stalled high nose landings, the latter needs more timing when on power off (mainly from currency)

But the problem will be the same even with fully stalled landings, the nose just drops fast when stick is far back and nose at 15deg up (no power slowing down bellow 50kts with main wheels on the ground), not sure how to explain this on M20J but it does not look like nose level stall vs 15deg up nose stall? AFAIK both should just happen power off at same stick position and speeds and no reason why one is more violent than the other? but also this may relate to wing stall turbulence hitting the tail and elevator losing effectiveness while near the ground, but that should be the same story on 15deg up and 0deg flares? 

Edited March 19, 2020 by Ibra

[Shadrach]

29 minutes ago, Ibra said:

They just like to land tail-hook or tailwheel first  when using too much runway is luxury, the aircraft gear and suspension does get beefed-up and fully stalled is the name of the game...

On fast tricycles, I think smooth flat landing require less skills than fully stalled high nose landings, the latter needs more timing when on power off (mainly from currency)

But the problem will be the same even with fully stalled landings, the nose just drops fast when stick is far back and nose at 15deg up (no power slowing down bellow 50kts with main wheels on the ground), not sure how to explain this on M20J but it does not look like nose level stall vs 15deg up nose stall? AFAIK both should just happen power off at same stick position and speeds and no reason why one is more violent than the other? but also this may relate to wing stall turbulence hitting the tail and elevator losing effectiveness while near the ground, but that should be the same story on 15deg up and 0deg flares? 

I’m probably as tired of posting this video as Mooneyspace veterans are of it being posted. Nevertheless...

 

Edited March 19, 2020 by Shadrach