Flying above 18K with Basic Med

[RobertE]

Folks, I’m upgrading to a turbocharged airplane soon and wonder about how that plays with Basic Med.  I don’t intend to willingly violate the 18K limitation but wonder how reluctant I should be to do so.  Specifically, if the tops are, say, 19K should I just fly through those likely ice-laden tops or ask for higher? Is higher than 18K a safety-of-flight only prerogative?  And if I do ask for higher should I assume that I can expect my adsb info to be tied to my license info to uncover a violation?  Maybe  it’s too soon for the FAA to have established its practices but would welcome any opinions.  Basically, what would you do?

[LANCECASPER]

When I heard that BasicMed's limitations were 18K it was a non-starter for me. In my opinion, if you're buying a turbo charged airplane and you're going to use it for what it's capable of, you need to go back to a 3rd class medical. You can't think about whether your medical allows you to go to FL190 if the mission call for it.

[carusoam]

Best to have a class III to match your plane and your mission...

Your plane is the only thing being monitored by ATC... they don’t know who the PIC is at any one time...

Doing the altitude chamber ride would be great... even though they require a class III for entry... until that changes...

 

Being new to flying in the FLs it helps to have a solid plan B, back-up O2 system... and O2 saturation monitors... and knowing your personal Low O2 symptoms...

 

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[kortopates]

A basic med for a turbo pilot is not a compatible option - period!

 

Edited December 9, 2019 by kortopates

[ilovecornfields]

I agree with the above. It’s like having a turbo and no instrument rating. Doesn’t make sense but people seem to do it for reasons I can’t comprehend.

[tmo]

Hey now, what happened to "buy your second plane first", eh?

Yanking your chain, of course, and yes, IR in my short term plans, regardless of turbo.

That said, plenty of people want TC for performance, density altitude, or just because they want to.  But let's not thread drift.

[Danb]

Paul quite a strong statement for many of us who have turbos while generally staying below FL 21 now 18, I recently went basic med after looking  at my history of flight, most of my long flights have been between 14,000 and 18,000 staying above most weather truing at or above 200 knots, many planes can’t achieve those numbers, I know my prior two 201’s loved 8000 ft 155-160 knots not being able to get above a lot of weather including ice. If I feel the need to go back to my 2nd or 3rd class I will. PERIOD 

I fly a fair amount of long cross countries, if I had  to go above FL 18 for safety reasons I wouldn’t think twice about it, I would however write my letter of what occurred and deal with the consequences later. Thinking my Bravo is useless below 18,000 feet is just dumb.

[exM20K]

1 hour ago, Danb said:

Paul quite a strong statement for many of us who have turbos while generally staying below FL 21 now 18, I recently went basic med after looking  at my history of flight, most of my long flights have been between 14,000 and 18,000 staying above most weather truing at or above 200 knots, many planes can’t achieve those numbers, I know my prior two 201’s loved 8000 ft 155-160 knots not being able to get above a lot of weather including ice. If I feel the need to go back to my 2nd or 3rd class I will. PERIOD 

I fly a fair amount of long cross countries, if I had  to go above FL 18 for safety reasons I wouldn’t think twice about it, I would however write my letter of what occurred and deal with the consequences later. Think my Bravo is useless below 18,000 feet is just dumb.

Agreed.  And for @RobertE - you have to decide if you must exercise your emergency authority in an unforeseen circumstance. 

I don't remember ever disagreeing with @kortopates, but in this case, I do.  DA42: turbo plane with a service ceiling of 18,000.  I only infrequently am above 17.5, though with different geography do deal with here in the Midwest, and I don't find this "ceiling" to limit my flying. 

There's a whole lot of usable sky between 12-18,000 that you will enjoy with a turbo if unable to get the Class III.

 

-dan

[gsxrpilot]

23 minutes ago, exM20K said:

There's a whole lot of usable sky between 12-18,000 that you will enjoy with a turbo if unable to get the Class III.

But that is all available with an Ovation as well without the added expense and complexity of the turbo. In fact, everything between 12 and 15 is available in a J.

[larryb]

Oxygen is another factor.

I took my J to FL200 one time to clear weather. That was all it could do. Proper altitude for my direction would have been FL210 but I couldn't get there. ATC let me stay at FL200 as long as I needed it. 

Then I took my K to FL240 one time to clear weather. That attempt was not successful, I was in the weather anyway. And I was very uncomfortable there, checking my O2 every 90 seconds or so. I was acutely aware of time of useful consciousness at that altitude. After that I decided I would generally limit myself to 18,000 and below. Since then I have not made a flight where it would have been a significant advantage to fly above 18,000.  Almost all of my trips > 2 hours are at 16,000 to 17,500.

Larry

[gsxrpilot]

It certainly depends on a number of factors, not the least of which is personal comfort. 

I've found that my sweet spot is FL230 or FL240. And I fly at those altitudes quite a bit. So I really appreciate the capability of the 252 in that regard. Having said that, those flights have almost all been solo. My wife is slowly acclimating if you will. She's pretty comfortable at 17,000 or 18,000 but hasn't been above that yet. And neither has our dog. 

I've also been at FL260 a few times, but am not quite as comfortable there as I am just a couple of K's lower.

[Parker_Woodruff]

The BasicMed Advisory Circular is pretty clear that you should be very confident a deviation to higher than 18,000 will not be necessary for the flight intended.  I'm stuck to BasicMed as a 3rd class would be costly and there's always the risk of getting denied.

A turbocharged airplane is still useful up in the teens, but an M20R may be preferred to an M20K since it still has still decent cruise speed in the teens and will be faster than an M20K down low.

It still probably won't be as efficient as the M20K at all altitudes.

[ilovecornfields]

I think Paul’s statement may have been a little strong, but I think that was done for clarity.

There are additional risks and costs associated with a turbocharged airplane. They also provide substantial benefits. I personally chose NOT to go with a turbocharged airplane (see my Ovation vs Bravo post from 3 years ago) but I appreciate that there are very good reasons to get a turbo. The most relevant one to me would be potentially getting above storms and ice or at least getting high enough to visually avoid them to the degree that this would be difficult to do in my Ovation.

ADM comes up frequently when pilots have mishaps and one of my goals is to stack things in my favor in order to reduce the likelihood that I will make a poor choice. If knowing that going above FL180 could result in a violation, loss of pilot certificate or loss of basicmed that would interfere with my rational evaluation of the options by increasing my cognitive stress. Even if I didn’t go above FL180, just knowing this limitation was there and restricting my optics would hamper my decision making.

I’m not sure if a NASA form would get you out of it. Declaring an emergency may help, but that’s a big deal for most and if you knew that you had to declare an emergency to (potentially) get above weather few would do it  (I brought it up on another thread, but I really recommend the book “Thinking fast and slow” if you have any interest in how you make decisions under stress). 

I understand basicmed is a gift to those who have SI medicals or who would otherwise have difficulty getting a 3rd class medical. I also understand that flying up high is more taxing on your physiology than staying low and that if you have some of the conditions requiring SI, your time of useful consciousness may be lower than what is listed in the table. There may be valid reasons why that airspeed and altitude restriction exist.

We all have opinions and I’m glad we can share them, even if we don’t always agree. I clearly am not guilty of using too few words to express my point.

[kortopates]

2 hours ago, Danb said:

Paul quite a strong statement for many of us who have turbos while generally staying below FL 21 now 18, I recently went basic med after looking  at my history of flight, most of my long flights have been between 14,000 and 18,000 staying above most weather truing at or above 200 knots, many planes can’t achieve those numbers, I know my prior two 201’s loved 8000 ft 155-160 knots not being able to get above a lot of weather including ice. If I feel the need to go back to my 2nd or 3rd class I will. PERIOD 

I fly a fair amount of long cross countries, if I had  to go above FL 18 for safety reasons I wouldn’t think twice about it, I would however write my letter of what occurred and deal with the consequences later. Thinking my Bravo is useless below 18,000 feet is just dumb.

 

1 hour ago, exM20K said:

Agreed.  And for @RobertE - you have to decide if you must exercise your emergency authority in an unforeseen circumstance. 

I don't remember ever disagreeing with @kortopates, but in this case, I do.  DA42: turbo plane with a service ceiling of 18,000.  I only infrequently am above 17.5, though with different geography do deal with here in the Midwest, and I don't find this "ceiling" to limit my flying. 

There's a whole lot of usable sky between 12-18,000 that you will enjoy with a turbo if unable to get the Class III.

 

-dan

I hope that didn't come across flippant. I was not suggesting that a turbo is not worthwhile below 18K, quite the contrary, I was reacting to the notion that it might be fine to fly one above 18K without a FAA Medical whenever weather might made it preferable or necessary. With all due to respect to Robert whom I have no wish to offend, this is needs to be recognized as classic normalization of deviance from the get go before the plane is even purchased and in the hangar. None of us should try to justify or rationalize developing unacceptable practice or standards, such as flying in Class A without a FAA Medical, without catastrophic results till the deviance becomes an acceptable norms. The thought needs to broken at the start with the notion that the planes service ceiling needs to be artificially lowered to below 18K while flown with a Basic Med,  similarly as if the plane was only outfitted with a UAT for ADS/B out.

[jlunseth]

I think the original question was trying to find out, if the OP were to go above 18k on occasion and he is on Basic Med, how likely is it the FAA will discover that.  Don’t forget that you can’t fly above 18K without being IFR and having a clearance, so there is a record that you requested, were cleared for, and did fly above the 18k ceiling.  What ADSB (an “out” transponder) adds to that is a record of your tail number and the altitude. Why would you do that, except perhaps by declaring an emergency, and then there would be some explaining to do when you get to the ground? Its pretty much the same as accepting a clearance when you have no instrument rating, or you are not current.  Just asking for trouble. And I think it is important to think of the impact on Basic Med itself, and the pilots who rely on it.  If the FAA learns that a number of Basic Med pilots are flying above 18k, then the whole program becomes suspect.  So what happens to Basic Med if that becomes a problem?

If you think you are going to fly above 18k, get the appropriate certificate.  If you want to accept a clearance, get the appropriate rating and keep it current.  

[Danb]

16 hours ago, kortopates said:

A basic med for a turbo pilot is not a compatible option - period!

 

Paul I agree with your subsequent explanation although the above statement that basic med for a turbo pilot is not a compatible option, that’s where I have an issue, I own a turbo, fly below 18,000 feet since my recent basic med, all the while  I flew above 18,000 minimally in the past, I assume based on the statement basic med pilots and turbos are incompatible, ludicrous. 

[Andy95W]

17 hours ago, kortopates said:

A basic med for a turbo pilot is not a compatible option - period!

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes."

  -Obi-Wan Kenobi

[larryb]

Back to the OP question. I don't have any specific knowledge one way or the other, but I doubt the FAA has a computer program to cross-check flights vs. pilots vs. medical status and kick out auto-violations. Certainly this sort of thing is possible. But I expect even if they did have such a program they would also need to assign people to verify the data and process the actual violation. 

Like many things, it is probably not a problem until it is a problem. If something happens while you are up there and an investigation is opened, we can be sure they would uncover the violation and make an issue of it.

Is your new turbo airplane FIKI? If not, then it wouldn't be advisable to be on top of icy clouds in a non-TKS Mooney anyway. Imagine this, you are happy on top, with your turbo and class 3 med at FL200. Your destination is clear, but there are icy clouds 100 miles in all directions. Your JPI flashes low oil pressure. Engine is still running, but for how long? Is this an engine problem or just a broken wire? Now what are you going to do?

[kortopates]

57 minutes ago, Danb said:

Paul I agree with your subsequent explanation although the above statement that basic med for a turbo pilot is not a compatible option, that’s where I have an issue, I own a turbo, fly below 18,000 feet since my recent basic med, all the while  I flew above 18,000 minimally in the past, I assume based on the statement basic med pilots and turbos are incompatible, ludicrous. 

I agree with you Dan and Andy both, and I am sorry my brief statement had that effect. I wasn't really thinking of how Dan put's it above and that is exactly the right attitude to portray IMO but I was responding to the intent to use the Turbo into Class A which is natural but not compatible with a Basic Med.

Agreed Andy, there are few absolutes in aviation. 

[Andy95W]

Oh, I was really just trying to lighten the mood a bit by injecting a little Star Wars humor into the conversation, since the new movie is coming out soon (I'm kind of a geek that way).

[N201MKTurbo]

Contrary to some of my posts, I actually follow the rules. 

That being said, the chance of getting busted for flying outside of your qualifications is quite low unless you cause some kind of problem that would cause the FAA to check your qualifications.

While they have all the data to cross check flight plans against qualifications, I think they have better things to do.

If they find that you knowingly violated the regs, they have told me that they will come down on you with everything they have!

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

If they find that you knowingly violated the regs, they have told me that they will come down on you with everything they have!

An FAA guy from the local FSDO talked at a Wings meeting about "How to survive a ramp check," and was very careful to articulate that the difference between "inadvertent" and "willful" violations are treated very differently.  So, yeah...

 

[carusoam]

Interesting summary...

This thread wins a prize for being an incredibly complex answer to what sounded Like a pretty simple question... I re-learned an important detail...

 

Concerns...

1) Airplane performance... Ceiling for the plane.

2) Pilot performance...  TUC, O₂ use, Class III exists for a reason, Basic Med doesn’t cover flying above 18k, SI(s) are pretty good!

3) Weather...  there are reasons to deviate around weather, but going over the weather is not the same thing physiology wise...

4) Class A airspace... 18k’ and above.

5) Class A requires an IFR flight plan...

6) The IFR flight plan is associated to the PIC...

7) So... prevailing logic says... Everyone knows exactly what happened after the fact, who was responsible, for what...

8) as usual, If declaring an emergency is required, use it...

9) Ethics... bending the rules a little can work against the multitude of guys that are depending on the Basic Med...

10) Having extra parts doesn’t mean they have to be used to their extreme, all the time... extra cylinders or TCs are often used below the FLs...

Great conversation with the great MS Community!

Thanks for keeping the communication channels open.

Best regards,

-a-

[ilovecornfields]

5 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Great conversation with the great MS Community

It really is! What a great discussion with people exchanging ideas and actually listening to each other.

[cliffy]

One last caution- the idea of going BACK to a Class III medical

What if you fail to pass that? Now your Basic Med is invalid (and you can't fly) until you can pass a 3rd Class medical. You're grounded!  Maybe forever!

That brings in why did you go basic Med in the first place?