Mooney Down - KCHD

[N201MKTurbo]

If you look at flight aware, they did a bunch of approaches out at the stack and then came back. There are no other tracks. It is possible it was a touch and go. This will give a lot of fodder for the never touch and goers.

[mooneyflyer]

On 9/14/2019 at 11:46 AM, SantosDumont said:

1 bounce ok, 2 bounces, go around, 3 bounces and well... this is what happens.

Not what happened at all.

[Shadrach]

6 hours ago, mooneyflyer said:

Not what happened at all.

Can you enlighten us as to what did happen? Departure stall at low altitude? Looking at the cowl and spinner, I am surprised there were no injuries.

Edited September 16, 2019 by Shadrach

[RogueOne]

On 9/14/2019 at 6:07 PM, aviatoreb said:

With everyone ok - what a relief - a joke is for me an expression of relief the fact that this is not a tragedy. 

O.K. With THAT context I understand where you are coming from.  As a pilot that was under instruction and had his plane on its belly I can not begin to explain the anguish that involves.  Seeing photos of my plane and having individuals make “light hearted” fun of a traumatic incident would be painful...in fact I am definitely impacted And empathetic BECAUSE I have been there.

That is my context to my comment.  I feel terrible for the pilot AND CFI and am VERY glad that no one on the ground was injured or aboard the plane.  It is definitely STILL a tragedy to those in that plane.  Glad they can live and learn.

Edited September 15, 2019 by RogueOne

[Jim Peace]

23 hours ago, chriscalandro said:

When it comes to the FAA and trouble, whoever has the most experience is the one on the hook.  Not necessarily the PIC.

No

[Mooney in Oz]

On 9/15/2019 at 4:04 AM, Shadrach said:

The damage looks as though it did half a cartwheel. 

Looks to me like a departure stall followed by a wing drop and half a cartwheel.

Previous mishap back in 1996. https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20001208X06255

[aviatoreb]

3 hours ago, RogueOne said:

O.K. With THAT context I understand where you are coming from.  As a pilot that was under instruction and had his plane on its belly I can not begin to explain the anguish that involves.  Seeing photos of my plane and having individuals make “light hearted” fun of a traumatic incident would be painful...in fact I am definitely impacted And empathetic BECAUSE I have been there.

That is my context to my comment.  I feel terrible for the pilot AND CFI and am VERY glad that no one on the ground was injured or aboard the plane.  It is definitely STILL a tragedy to those in that plane.  Glad they can live and learn.

I’m sorry you had that bad day.  I am very glad you are well!

If it makes sense - I do this to myself even.  I wrecked my car on an icy road about three years ago / with my son on board and we were both ok but I was bruised and car was totaled / and soon after I was joking trying to find relief from s very scary event.

[thinwing]

Sorry to see this happen...earlier comment was that this was for a flight review ...my thought was that I once took a flight review with a young CFI that I believe had very little or none high performance experience.He was pushing for short field takeoffs aka Cessna 172 speeds of which he typically flown.I finally had to take him in hand ( I refused to attempt rotation at his suggested 50 kt airspeed)and taxied back while I could go over the pilots manual,balanced field requirements similar to turbine and how a laminar flow Mooney wing reacts to high Aoa low speed flight.I basically told him the Bravo could not duplicate the short and soft field performance of a 172.He was of the opinion that ANY light general aviation aircraft could do so.Something about FAA certification requirements he said.Well we went round and round so I terminated the review and finished up later with the guy I was originally supposed to fly with.He later killed him self on takeoff from Lake Tahoe on a hot summer day.

[Niko182]

6 minutes ago, thinwing said:

Sorry to see this happen...earlier comment was that this was for a flight review ...my thought was that I once took a flight review with a young CFI that I believe had very little or none high performance experience.He was pushing for short field takeoffs aka Cessna 172 speeds of which he typically flown.I finally had to take him in hand ( I refused to attempt rotation at his suggested 50 kt airspeed)and taxied back while I could go over the pilots manual,balanced field requirements similar to turbine and how a laminar flow Mooney wing reacts to high Aoa low speed flight.I basically told him the Bravo could not duplicate the short and soft field performance of a 172.He was of the opinion that ANY light general aviation aircraft could do so.Something about FAA certification requirements he said.Well we went round and round so I terminated the review and finished up later with the guy I was originally supposed to fly with.He later killed him self on takeoff from Lake Tahoe on a hot summer day.

Its a brutal reality to see that people that arent willing to learn, in the end usually learn the hard way. It sucks even more that these type of people that usually survive these types of accidents usually dont even take the time to learn after the accident and then do it again. Taking a wild guess, if that cfi would have survived that accident in tahoe, im sure it wouldnt have been long before another accident occured. Poh on the long body mooneys states stall speed at 59 kias with full flaps. No way that plane was coming off the ground. Might as well say since the lancair has a vne of 256, the ovations vne can also be 256.

[Yooper Rocketman]

9 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

 Might as well say since the lancair has a vne of 256, the ovations vne can also be 256.

VNE on the IV,  IVP, and IVPT is 274kts

Tom

[mooneyflyer]

17 hours ago, RogueOne said:

O.K. With THAT context I understand where you are coming from.  As a pilot that was under instruction and had his plane on its belly I can not begin to explain the anguish that involves.  Seeing photos of my plane and having individuals make “light hearted” fun of a traumatic incident would be painful...in fact I am definitely impacted And empathetic BECAUSE I have been there.

That is my context to my comment.  I feel terrible for the pilot AND CFI and am VERY glad that no one on the ground was injured or aboard the plane.  It is definitely STILL a tragedy to those in that plane.  Glad they can live and learn.

Perfectly said.  I think we dont show much sympathy for a fellow Mooniac who probably has lost his airplane, or saying negative things about the CFI, or speculating on the cause of the accident.  Imagine if it was you and your Mooney.  You would feel terrible about the jokes.  Let's show some empathy for a fellow Mooniac.

And let's act consistently... people agreed not to speculate on the Mooney Caravan incident at Osh until the NTSB completed its findings.  Let's show this owner the same.  Is that OK to ask?

[donkaye]

On a soft field takeoff it is possible to have the airplane leave the ground before the POH specified rotation speed.  When it comes off the ground depends on DA, wind, type of ground makeup.  Soft field takeoffs should be a part of transition training with a Mooney Specific Instructor.  Once off the ground it is important to reduce back pressure to remain in ground effect as close to the ground as possible to build speed up to Vx before leaving ground effect.  It's a safe maneuver if you know what your are doing.  I personally won't operate my airplane off of grass or what might be considered a soft field for a variety of reasons, but to fully understand the dynamic speed range of the Mooney it is important to practice soft field takeoffs.  Remember, induced drag is reduced by nearly 50% when less than 10% of the wingspan above ground.  For the Mooney that's 3 feet.  So don't be afraid to keep the plane low in ground effect.  I find most people don't keep the plane low enough.  A word of caution; don't practice them at high DA airports with short runways.   Use common sense.

[steingar]

There for the grace of Odin go I.  Taking off from a 2500 foot grass strip I got launched into the air by a bump in the middle of the stip.  Silly me, I thought I was flying and put some back pressure on the yoke, only to be rewarded with the stall horn.  Got it off safely, and the flight went well (more or less).  

Personally, I think whether PIC or not the CFI deserves a spanking for letting it get that far.  I imagine a distracted pilot can forget to reset trim and flaps.  That'll send you up at a steep deck angle.  Still, a decent CFI should see things slowing down, hear the stall horn and act appropriately.

Edited September 17, 2019 by steingar

[mooneyflyer]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

On a soft field takeoff it is possible to have the airplane leave the ground before the POH specified rotation speed.  When it comes off the ground depends on DA, wind, type of ground makeup.  Soft field takeoffs should be a part of transition training with a Mooney Specific Instructor.  Once off the ground it is important to reduce back pressure to remain in ground effect as close to the ground as possible to build speed up to Vx before leaving ground effect.  It's a safe maneuver if you know what your are doing.  I personally won't operate my airplane off of grass or what might be considered a soft field for a variety of reasons, but to fully understand the dynamic speed range of the Mooney it is important to practice soft field takeoffs.  Remember, induced drag is reduced by nearly 50% when less than 10% of the wingspan above ground.  For the Mooney that's 3 feet.  So don't be afraid to keep the plane low in ground effect.  I find most people don't keep the plane low enough.  A word of caution; don't practice them at high DA airports with short runways.   Use common sense.

As always, a thoughtful and objective analysis!

[mooneyflyer]

1 hour ago, steingar said:

There for the grace of Odin go I.  Taking off from a 2500 foot grass strip I got launched into the air by a bump in the middle of the stip.  Silly me, I thought I was flying and put some back pressure on the yoke, only to be reward with the stall horn.  Got it off safely, and the flight went well (more or less).  

Personally, I think whether PIC or not the CFI deserves a spanking for letting it get that far.  I imagine a distract pilot ca forget to reset trim and flaps.  That'll send you up at a steep deck angle.  Still, a decent CFI should see things slowing down, hear the stall horn and act appropriately.

This was a flight review.  wish you would not assign your judgement to either the PIC or CFI without any credible knowledge of what actually happened.  I am not flaming you, but rather showing some empathy for fellow Mooniacs.

Things happen much faster in Mooneys than many other airplanes too

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, Niko182 said:

Its a brutal reality to see that people that arent willing to learn, in the end usually learn the hard way. It sucks even more that these type of people that usually survive these types of accidents usually dont even take the time to learn after the accident and then do it again. Taking a wild guess, if that cfi would have survived that accident in tahoe, im sure it wouldnt have been long before another accident occured. Poh on the long body mooneys states stall speed at 59 kias with full flaps. No way that plane was coming off the ground. Might as well say since the lancair has a vne of 256, the ovations vne can also be 256.

It will indeed come off the ground at under 59kias, especially given the likelihood that during a FR the aircraft is well under MGW and therefore stall speed is under Vso at MGW (59KIAS). Soft field procedures dictate that the aircraft lifts off as soon as possible and accelerates to flying speed in ground effect (Vso is reduced in ground effect).

[Shadrach]

22 minutes ago, mooneyflyer said:

This was a flight review.  wish you would not assign your judgement to either the PIC or CFI without any credible knowledge of what actually happened.  I am not flaming you, but rather showing some empathy for fellow Mooniacs.

Things happen much faster in Mooneys than many other airplanes too

I don't see any malice in this thread. I think folks are genuinely curious about what happened.  Clearly the maneuver was mishandled by someone.  Discussing what happened means discussing who was flying and how they came to grief. 

[N201MKTurbo]

We should all be knocking on wood, crossing our fingers, throwing salt over our shoulders and hoping it never happens to us!

What was the name of that book?    Fate is the Hunter.

Those who judge should knock on wood twice!

[Bolter]

2 hours ago, donkaye said:

On a soft field takeoff it is possible to have the airplane leave the ground before the POH specified rotation speed.  When it comes off the ground depends on DA, wind, type of ground makeup.  Soft field takeoffs should be a part of transition training with a Mooney Specific Instructor.  Once off the ground it is important to reduce back pressure to remain in ground effect as close to the ground as possible to build speed up to Vx before leaving ground effect.  It's a safe maneuver if you know what your are doing.  I personally won't operate my airplane off of grass or what might be considered a soft field for a variety of reasons, but to fully understand the dynamic speed range of the Mooney it is important to practice soft field takeoffs.  Remember, induced drag is reduced by nearly 50% when less than 10% of the wingspan above ground.  For the Mooney that's 3 feet.  So don't be afraid to keep the plane low in ground effect.  I find most people don't keep the plane low enough.  A word of caution; don't practice them at high DA airports with short runways.   Use common sense.

@donkaye , thanks for this nice summary.  I understand ground effect as a principle, but was not familiar with the 50% reduction in induced drag when <10% of the wing span AGL. 

Since the plane is already a few feet off the ground when on the wheels, would you need to be <1 foot off the pavement at the wheel in order to gain any meaningful ground effect benefit?  Or is the 3 feet measured from the wheels, not the wing?

Do you have a chart or reference to show ground effect at slightly higher heights above ground?  Or improvement in lift rather than reduction in drag as the key value? 

thanks, -dan

[chriscalandro]

21 hours ago, Jim Peace said:

No

Yes

[carusoam]

Glad all are well...

At MS... we learn a few things...

• proper aviation.
• proper writing.
• proper things to throw over our shoulders...

 

As far as the hook, and who is on it...

In GA... We would have to review the PIC discussion that is supposed to happen at the beginning of the flight...

The PIC discussion has been update over the last few years...

The guy with the most experience... used to be the guy on the hook.   

Since that makes no sense in some cases, and impedes progress in others...

So... the guy that is on the hook, is generally the guy who accepted being PIC...

 

That conversation used to be challenging early on...  once it is your plane, and your insurance, that conversation becomes pretty matter of fact...

If it is difficult to have that conversation...?  Try to Have it before getting in the plane... 

Best regards,

-a-

[jaylw314]

21 hours ago, RogueOne said:

O.K. With THAT context I understand where you are coming from.  As a pilot that was under instruction and had his plane on its belly I can not begin to explain the anguish that involves.  Seeing photos of my plane and having individuals make “light hearted” fun of a traumatic incident would be painful...in fact I am definitely impacted And empathetic BECAUSE I have been there.

That is my context to my comment.  I feel terrible for the pilot AND CFI and am VERY glad that no one on the ground was injured or aboard the plane.  It is definitely STILL a tragedy to those in that plane.  Glad they can live and learn.

Wow, I hadn't thought you capable of such sensitivity  

I am just teasing you, of course!  We'll make a psychotherapist out of you yet! 

[Jim Peace]

34 minutes ago, chriscalandro said:

Yes

NO,,,please post where it says that in the regs or past cases?

If I fly with a friend who owns his own plane and he is PIC and low time and I am just going to breakfast with the guy and he does something stupid how am I responsible?  If that were the case high time pilots would not fly with low time pilots in the left seat ever again.....

There are times when at my company an FO can have twice the time as the captain....is the FO responsible for his actions?  it's not reflected in the paycheck that way....

[donkaye]

57 minutes ago, Dan at S43 said:

@donkaye , thanks for this nice summary.  I understand ground effect as a principle, but was not familiar with the 50% reduction in induced drag when <10% of the wing span AGL. 

Since the plane is already a few feet off the ground when on the wheels, would you need to be <1 foot off the pavement at the wheel in order to gain any meaningful ground effect benefit?  Or is the 3 feet measured from the wheels, not the wing?

Do you have a chart or reference to show ground effect at slightly higher heights above ground?  Or improvement in lift rather than reduction in drag as the key value? 

thanks, -dan

The 1st picture is from the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook and the 2nd from Kirshner's Advanced Pilot's Flight Manual.

Pages from FAA-H-8083-3B (Ground Effect).pdf Ground Effect.pdf

[Yetti]

I have started writing on this thread several times.   and then deleted.   This is my kick off for my presentations on soft skills and how my wife thinks I would be  as a therapist