M20J insurance cost

[alextstone]

1 hour ago, MikeOH said:

Who says you can't have both in a CFI?

No one said that.  

[MikeOH]

3 hours ago, alextstone said:

No one said that.  

Then what was the point of your comment, "I'll take humble OVER safe" if you can have both?

[alextstone]

8 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Then what was the point of your comment, "I'll take humble OVER safe" if you can have both?

The point of my comment was simply an agreement with @mike_elliott in that there should be no set time for achievement of proficiency.  I have had instructors who are so "humble" as to allow me to decide if I am safe and if I have had enough training to complete the task at hand. I don't know if as the student, I am really the best person to make that decision.  So, while I am sure there are humble instructors who are also safe, if I were to choose between the two, I would rather have one who is assertive enough to make an honest evaluation of my skill and to guide me toward improvement regardless of the time involved.  

My comment was not meant to imply you are wrong.  Perhaps we have different needs in an instructor.  

As an aside,  I was at the airport recently and I saw another pilot who bases his airplane there show up, pace around while he was on the phone as his airplane that had not been flown in over a month was pulled from the hangar and then hop in for a series of touch and go's without so much as checking the oil level.  Now, that's not safe.  This same person switched instructors a while back because instructor "A" was too insistent on following the FAA training guidelines.   Instuctor "B" that he switched to has a reputation for being "nice", "humble", "supportive"...in other words, he's the guy you go to if you want to get the training done quickly and easily.  So, it's through observations and personal experience that I made that comment.

[aviatoreb]

25 minutes ago, alextstone said:

...I was at the airport recently and I saw another pilot who bases his airplane there show up, pace around while he was on the phone as his airplane that had not been flown in over a month was pulled from the hangar and then hop in for a series of touch and go's without so much as checking the oil level.  Now, that's not safe.  

I've seen the same - I remember once seeing a local neuro surgeon "preflighting" his new cirrus - a quick walk around - while simultaneously talking on his dictaphone about details of an upcoming surgery!  I wasn't sure if I would rather less fly with him or be under the knife with him because that's just too much multi-tasking for me.

[ReconMax]

Thanks for all the posts on insurance. I'm 50 with about 200 hours TT. I contacted three brokers and all of them got me quotes within about $50 of each other. After reading this thread, I contacted Avemco who quoted me the lowest rate but still within about $50 of the other three quotes.

I think I will go with Avemco because they quoted me the lowest rate with the most stringent requirements. One company required that I get 3 hours dual. That seems way to low. I was surprised. Avemco requires 10 hours for me.

I don't really know what is reasonable. I think it depends on the pilot, the instructor and the plane. I'm not sure how long it will take me to become proficient but it doesn't really matter as I'll be having fun going through the process.

Personally, for a CFI transition trainer, I want someone who is EXPERIENCED, observant and has character including candor. If the CFI thinks I need to learn more before signing me off, I want to know about it. If the CFI thinks there is something about me, my attitude, skills, whatever that causes any doubt, I want to talk about it. I would not want an instructor who bases any decision on the thought that I might be offended or get my feelings hurt or maybe get mad and go get another instructor.

It's certainly possible that I will be offended or have my feelings hurt but it doesn't matter even a little bit to me. I just want to be as prepared as possible to fly my plane safely. If getting there hurts a little, so be it.

MooneySpace is such a treasure trove of information. I'm glad I found it.

 

 

 

[Parker_Woodruff]

15 minutes ago, ReconMax said:

Thanks for all the posts on insurance. I'm 50 with about 200 hours TT. I contacted three brokers and all of them got me quotes within about $50 of each other. After reading this thread, I contacted Avemco who quoted me the lowest rate but still within about $50 of the other three quotes.

I think I will go with Avemco because they quoted me the lowest rate with the most stringent requirements. One company required that I get 3 hours dual. That seems way to low. I was surprised. Avemco requires 10 hours for me.

I don't really know what is reasonable. I think it depends on the pilot, the instructor and the plane. I'm not sure how long it will take me to become proficient but it doesn't really matter as I'll be having fun going through the process.

Personally, for a CFI transition trainer, I want someone who is EXPERIENCED, observant and has character including candor. If the CFI thinks I need to learn more before signing me off, I want to know about it. If the CFI thinks there is something about me, my attitude, skills, whatever that causes any doubt, I want to talk about it. I would not want an instructor who bases any decision on the thought that I might be offended or get my feelings hurt or maybe get mad and go get another instructor.

It's certainly possible that I will be offended or have my feelings hurt but it doesn't matter even a little bit to me. I just want to be as prepared as possible to fly my plane safely. If getting there hurts a little, so be it.

MooneySpace is such a treasure trove of information. I'm glad I found it.

 

 

 

Keep in mind that Avemco's "per person" liability coverage is different than most other carriers' "per passenger" liability coverage.

Third parties outside the aircraft are limited to Avemco's sublimit where other carriers would not sublimit bodily injury to people outside the plane.

[ReconMax]

2 minutes ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Keep in mind that Avemco's "per person" liability coverage is different than most other carriers' "per passenger" liability coverage.

Third parties outside the aircraft are limited to Avemco's sublimit where other carriers would not sublimit bodily injury to people outside the plane.

Okay, thanks, So I don't know much about what I should be looking for. The statements below are from the quote. Is it missing anything important?

The quote they gave me includes the following;

1. Bodily Injury (Including Occupants) And Property Damage Liability ($100K each person, $1M Property Damage, $1M each accident)
2. Aircraft damage (Including In Flight) No Deductible either In Motion or Not In Motion
3. Medical Expenses ($3000 each occupant)

It looks to me like if someone outside the airplane was injured, the coverage would be limited to $100K for the person and $1M for the property.

Also, I don't see anything in the quote about it but the representative told me on the phone that their legal defense for liability was unlimited, no cap until settled. I don't really know what that means either.

 

[ReconMax]

3 minutes ago, ReconMax said:

Okay, thanks, So I don't know much about what I should be looking for. The statements below are from the quote. Is it missing anything important?

The quote they gave me includes the following;

1. Bodily Injury (Including Occupants) And Property Damage Liability ($100K each person, $1M Property Damage, $1M each accident)
2. Aircraft damage (Including In Flight) No Deductible either In Motion or Not In Motion
3. Medical Expenses ($3000 each occupant)

It looks to me like if someone outside the airplane was injured, the coverage would be limited to $100K for the person and $1M for the property.

Also, I don't see anything in the quote about it but the representative told me on the phone that their legal defense for liability was unlimited, no cap until settled. I don't really know what that means either.

 

Avemco also indicated I should call them and get my rate lowered;

• By 8% once I get my IFR rating
• By 8% once I achieve 100 hrs in the plane
• By 10% at renewal with no claims

[donkaye]

24 minutes ago, ReconMax said:

Okay, thanks, So I don't know much about what I should be looking for. The statements below are from the quote. Is it missing anything important?

The quote they gave me includes the following;

1. Bodily Injury (Including Occupants) And Property Damage Liability ($100K each person, $1M Property Damage, $1M each accident)
2. Aircraft damage (Including In Flight) No Deductible either In Motion or Not In Motion
3. Medical Expenses ($3000 each occupant)

It looks to me like if someone outside the airplane was injured, the coverage would be limited to $100K for the person and $1M for the property.

Also, I don't see anything in the quote about it but the representative told me on the phone that their legal defense for liability was unlimited, no cap until settled. I don't really know what that means either.

 

In my opinion, even if it does cost more, you want SMOOTH coverage, not a per passenger limited amount.  Just imagine in the recent DVT accident if the pilot has the $100,000 limit.  That wouldn't begin to cover his medical expenses.

[ReconMax]

12 minutes ago, donkaye said:

In my opinion, even if it does cost more, you want SMOOTH coverage, not a per passenger limited amount.  Just imagine in the recent DVT accident if the pilot has the $100,000 limit.  That wouldn't t begin to cover his medical expenses.

It's the $3000 limit for each occupant for medical expenses that gives me pause. Isn't the airplane medical coverage really just to pay your medical insurance deductibles? I do have medical insurance.

So, now I'm confused. Avemco's policy is not good? Are the quote characteristics substantially different than other policies?

 

 

[donkaye]

6 minutes ago, ReconMax said:

It's the $3000 limit for each occupant for medical expenses that gives me pause. Isn't the airplane medical coverage really just to pay your medical insurance deductibles? I do have medical insurance.

So, now I'm confused. Avemco's policy is not good? Are the quote characteristics substantially different than other policies?

 

 

Does your regular medical insurance cover flying a small plane?

[ReconMax]

9 minutes ago, donkaye said:

Does your regular medical insurance cover flying a small plane?

LOL. It covers everything medical I thought! Medical insurance is so messed up though. It sounds like you may know something I don't. I'll call and ask them.

 

Okay. They said getting hurt in a plane accident would be treated no differently than an automobile accident.

[Parker_Woodruff]

31 minutes ago, ReconMax said:

Okay, thanks, So I don't know much about what I should be looking for. The statements below are from the quote. Is it missing anything important?

The quote they gave me includes the following;

1. Bodily Injury (Including Occupants) And Property Damage Liability ($100K each person, $1M Property Damage, $1M each accident)
2. Aircraft damage (Including In Flight) No Deductible either In Motion or Not In Motion
3. Medical Expenses ($3000 each occupant) You can handle first-aid expenses as necessary without admitting liability.  The insurance co will reimburse you up to this amount.

It looks to me like if someone outside the airplane was injured, the coverage would be limited to $100K for the person and $1M for the property. that's correct, unless they have an endorsement clarifying that the per person limit only applies to passengers.  To my knowledge, Avemco limits to ALL persons.

Also, I don't see anything in the quote about it but the representative told me on the phone that their legal defense for liability was unlimited, no cap until settled. I don't really know what that means either. Most every aviation insurance company does not make the costs to defend you within the limits of liability.  In other words, you have $1,000,000 available for any judgement or settlement and the $ABC,XYZ amount for the attorneys from the insurance co to defend you will not eat into that.

 

responses in bold, above.

[Parker_Woodruff]

27 minutes ago, donkaye said:

In my opinion, even if it does cost more, you want SMOOTH coverage, not a per passenger limited amount.  Just imagine in the recent DVT accident if the pilot has the $100,000 limit.  That wouldn't begin to cover his medical expenses.

If he is the owner of the aircraft, he'd have to sue himself to get to the passenger liability limit.  It does not cover first party Bodily Injury.  Medical Payments covers that...and of course to much lower amounts.

[Parker_Woodruff]

10 minutes ago, donkaye said:

Does your regular medical insurance cover flying a small plane?

Most medical insurance does.  Some medical insurance policies do not.

[aviatoreb]

39 minutes ago, donkaye said:

Does your regular medical insurance cover flying a small plane?

I agree completely.  I carry smooth - because what if....

[RobertGary1]

50 minutes ago, ReconMax said:

It's the $3000 limit for each occupant for medical expenses that gives me pause. Isn't the airplane medical coverage really just to pay your medical insurance deductibles? I do have medical insurance

  

 

In my personal experience the medial coverage on your vehicle policy is simply a gift to your health insurance company. It doesn't reduce your deductible or contribute to a co-pay. The hospital will claim against it within 12 hours of your arrival and the insurance will pay it directly to the hospital. The balance is billed to your health insurance and all your deductible/copays remain the same. Save money and drop the medical coverage when you can. 

-Robert

[mike_elliott]

The point of my comment was simply an agreement with [mention=11242]mike_elliott[/mention] in that there should be no set time for achievement of proficiency.  I have had instructors who are so "humble" as to allow me to decide if I am safe and if I have had enough training to complete the task at hand. I don't know if as the student, I am really the best person to make that decision.  So, while I am sure there are humble instructors who are also safe, if I were to choose between the two, I would rather have one who is assertive enough to make an honest evaluation of my skill and to guide me toward improvement regardless of the time involved.  
My comment was not meant to imply you are wrong.  Perhaps we have different needs in an instructor.  
As an aside,  I was at the airport recently and I saw another pilot who bases his airplane there show up, pace around while he was on the phone as his airplane that had not been flown in over a month was pulled from the hangar and then hop in for a series of touch and go's without so much as checking the oil level.  Now, that's not safe.  This same person switched instructors a while back because instructor "A" was too insistent on following the FAA training guidelines.   Instuctor "B" that he switched to has a reputation for being "nice", "humble", "supportive"...in other words, he's the guy you go to if you want to get the training done quickly and easily.  So, it's through observations and personal experience that I made that comment.

My original point was there is a standard of performance I'll hold a client to, it is not based on hours, that's for the underwriters to assign. It has nothing to do with wether or not one considers me humble. If some feel this is egregious or I am too conceited because of having a standard, that is their perogative. Fortunately, I haven't found very many if any clients I have not had a great professional and personal relationship with.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[Hank]

On ‎6‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 7:41 AM, M20F said:

Then we will be sure not to ask you. 

Can we please answer posted questions without sniping at each other??? There's no reason for this type of post in this thread.

Please? Thank you.

[Parker_Woodruff]

55 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

In my personal experience the medial coverage on your vehicle policy is simply a gift to your health insurance company. It doesn't reduce your deductible or contribute to a co-pay. The hospital will claim against it within 12 hours of your arrival and the insurance will pay it directly to the hospital. The balance is billed to your health insurance and all your deductible/copays remain the same. Save money and drop the medical coverage when you can. 

-Robert

It does, however, give you some money to use in good faith that can go a long way towards mitigating ill-will towards a party that may otherwise consider legal action.

[Parker_Woodruff]

On 6/29/2019 at 10:52 PM, 201er said:

Are you saying we have to pay for Boeing screwing up???

Does that mean that Boeing will be chipping in for the slew of Mooney gear ups and accidents too?

The airlines will take the biggest hit.  Expect some marginal effect for light GA.

[MikeOH]

10 hours ago, ReconMax said:

LOL. It covers everything medical I thought! Medical insurance is so messed up though. It sounds like you may know something I don't. I'll call and ask them.

 

Okay. They said getting hurt in a plane accident would be treated no differently than an automobile accident.

I'm pretty sure that you have your answers, but I'll be redundant anyway!

I would NOT go with AVEMCO because their sublimit applies to persons OUTSIDE the aircraft.  While the odds of major damage and injuries to property and others on the ground is low (that's why liability ONLY policies for $1 million are so cheap) limiting that to $100K vs. the full $1 million does not seem a risk worth taking for $50-$100 difference in premium.

The hull and injury to passengers is where the financial risk lies.  While I'll make the rare exception, I do NOT fly non family members as I do NOT have smooth coverage and $100K per seat is not going to protect my assets for squat...and my general umbrella policy SPECIFICALLY excludes GA flying!

And, yes most medical insurance is going to cover your, and others', injuries so the $3K medical seems rather trivial unless you think, as Parker pointed out, there is some psychological value in minimizing your chances of being sued...I'm too cynical to think that, however!

[MikeOH]

9 hours ago, Hank said:

Can we please answer posted questions without sniping at each other??? There's no reason for this type of post in this thread.

Please? Thank you.

Well, it started with this, "You wont get me to scribble squat in your book until I am satisfied...". which is a pretty snarky comment, if not a snipe in itself.

So, yeah, I agree "There's no reason for (those) type of posts..."

[RobertGary1]

14 hours ago, MikeOH said:

And, yes most medical insurance is going to cover your, and others', injuries so the $3K medical seems rather trivial unless you think, as Parker pointed out, there is some psychological value in minimizing your chances of being sued...I'm too cynical to think that, however!

And that 3K is just "immediate" money. The health insurance company and pax will sue for the per-seat limits anyway. Medical payments is just a "no-questions" paid in 24 hours thing whereas the seat liability is a drawn out insurance claim. Until I had a claim I used to believe the insurance sales people when they said it reduces health insurance deductibles, copays, etc. After my first claim the claim agent said "I don't know why they say that, its not true".

-Robert

[ReconMax]

3 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

And that 3K is just "immediate" money. The health insurance company and pax will sue for the per-seat limits anyway. Medical payments is just a "no-questions" paid in 24 hours thing whereas the seat liability is a drawn out insurance claim. Until I had a claim I used to believe the insurance sales people when they said it reduces health insurance deductibles, copays, etc. After my first claim the claim agent said "I don't know why they say that, its not true".

-Robert

I'm re-evaluating the insurance direction I need to take. @Parker_Woodruff posted some interesting comments about the quote I got from avemco and so now, I am taking a step back to look at it all again.