ADS-B and GPS Panel Upgrade Advice - 1970 M20E

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, MIm20c said:

Anyone know if the stc will allow this?  Or does it specify hsi or AI?

Allow switching between HSI and PFD mode?   It's one of the safety features of the device.   The manual shows how to do it, and they made it extremely easy.   IIRC, If it is to be used as an HSI the magnetometer must be installed, but if that is present it can be configured as either.

[MIm20c]

4 hours ago, EricJ said:

Allow switching between HSI and PFD mode?   It's one of the safety features of the device.   The manual shows how to do it, and they made it extremely easy.   IIRC, If it is to be used as an HSI the magnetometer must be installed, but if that is present it can be configured as either.

I was thinking of the change between being sold as a HSI unit and being used/setup as a required AI backup. For individuals who wanted to buy/use the hsi for a couple years and then upgrade to a g3x and move the g5 to a backup AI role. 

[gsxrpilot]

3 hours ago, MIm20c said:

I was thinking of the change between being sold as a HSI unit and being used/setup as a required AI backup. For individuals who wanted to buy/use the hsi for a couple years and then upgrade to a g3x and move the g5 to a backup AI role. 

Good point. The G5 installed as an HSI, can not fulfill the requirement for a required backup AI. And actually the STC doesn't seem to allow the G5 to be used as a backup AI at all, but many of us have done it anyway without any issues getting it approved.

But if you don't need a backup AI, or are not required to have a backup AI and just install a G5 as your HSI, in the event your AI fails, it takes a single button push to convert your HSI to an AI which can get you down through the soup and back on the ground.

[McMooney]

On my checkride Tuesday,  inbound on the LOC 17R approach into KDWH

the Examiner covers my GPS and ask now what, how do you identify the fix.

I smiled,  pointed at the ancient DME dutifully showing distance from the localizer and about 10 mins later,  became an IR rated pilot.

Edited July 5, 2019 by McMooney

[carusoam]

Way to go, and congrats McM!

Best regards,

-a-

[EricJ]

21 hours ago, McMooney said:

On my checkride Tuesday,  inbound on the LOC 17R approach into KDWH

the Examiner covers my GPS and ask now what, how do you identify the fix.

I smiled,  pointed at the ancient DME dutifully showing distance from the localizer and about 10 mins later,  became an IR rated pilot.

First, Congrats!  

Similarly, my examiner covered up my AI at the beginning of the last final approach of my check ride.   I told him I could just switch the G5 HSI to PFD mode, and he was fine with that, so I did.   About ten seconds later I felt like I missed the HSI heading indication more than I missed the AI, so I switched it back.   He was okay with that, too. 

[flyingcheesehead]

On 6/28/2019 at 5:32 PM, Ragsf15e said:

Any approach that is /DME and is loaded in the gps database can just be flown using the gps for DME.

Not entirely true... Practically speaking, good enough for most of us, but GPS cannot be used in lieu of DME on an arc inside the FAF, such as on this approach: 

Now, that's not a great loss there, since there's an RNAV(GPS) with lower minimums, but there's at least one other approach like this... I just can't remember where. 

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, flyingcheesehead said:

Not entirely true... Practically speaking, good enough for most of us, but GPS cannot be used in lieu of DME on an arc inside the FAF, such as on this approach: 

Now, that's not a great loss there, since there's an RNAV(GPS) with lower minimums, but there's at least one other approach like this... I just can't remember where. 

Well now that’s a cool approach!  Arc to final?  Nice!

However, I think you can still use GPS to fly that arc in lieu of DME.  I’ll try to dig up the exact wording from the AIM, but I’m pretty sure you can always substitute GPS for DME - even inside the FAF it’s ok.  Let’s find the AIM wording.

[toto]

Pretty decent brief from AOPA on this. 

https://www.aopa.org/advocacy/advocacy-briefs/air-traffic-services-brief-use-of-gps-in-lieu-of-dme-adf

[Ragsf15e]

I saw that one too but it’s from 1998 and the rules have been updated a couple times.  Honestly, it’s probably debatable on the approach Cheesehead showed.  The AIM says you can use GPS to fly a DME arc but you need to at least monitor the navaid that provides “lateral guidance” on final.  Generally this refers to vor or adf.  You fly the approach using gps but monitor vor because it provides lateral guidance.  GPS sub for DME is usually ok to use in all segments as it isn’t lateral guidance.  On his approach, is the dme lateral guidance? 

 

[flyingcheesehead]

On 7/6/2019 at 10:08 PM, Ragsf15e said:

Well now that’s a cool approach!  Arc to final?  Nice!

However, I think you can still use GPS to fly that arc in lieu of DME.  I’ll try to dig up the exact wording from the AIM, but I’m pretty sure you can always substitute GPS for DME - even inside the FAF it’s ok.  Let’s find the AIM wording.

 

On 7/6/2019 at 10:32 PM, Ragsf15e said:

I saw that one too but it’s from 1998 and the rules have been updated a couple times.  Honestly, it’s probably debatable on the approach Cheesehead showed.  The AIM says you can use GPS to fly a DME arc but you need to at least monitor the navaid that provides “lateral guidance” on final.  Generally this refers to vor or adf.  You fly the approach using gps but monitor vor because it provides lateral guidance.  GPS sub for DME is usually ok to use in all segments as it isn’t lateral guidance.  On his approach, is the dme lateral guidance? 

You nailed it. On the approach that I posted, the DME is used for lateral guidance inside the FAF and thus you cannot use your GPS to substitute for DME.

IMO, they should change this for equipment that allows you to have a lateral guidance needle inside the FAF. I don't know that this would help us any, but some of the curved RNP approaches that can be flown with modern avionics that goes into some of the larger equipment should be able to do that approach if the avionics can provide a needle on an eHSI or something. But, the FAA isn't known for keeping up with the pace of technology.

[Ragsf15e]

14 minutes ago, flyingcheesehead said:

 

You nailed it. On the approach that I posted, the DME is used for lateral guidance inside the FAF and thus you cannot use your GPS to substitute for DME.

IMO, they should change this for equipment that allows you to have a lateral guidance needle inside the FAF. I don't know that this would help us any, but some of the curved RNP approaches that can be flown with modern avionics that goes into some of the larger equipment should be able to do that approach if the avionics can provide a needle on an eHSI or something. But, the FAA isn't known for keeping up with the pace of technology.

Even my old GNS 430 provides a lateral guidance needle on a curved path.  If I load an approach with an arc, the gps will provide updated cdi information to the hsi as you arc and steer right around the arc.  I bet it would work just fine on the final portion of the arcing approach, but I agree it might not be technically legal.

[flyingcheesehead]

2 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Even my old GNS 430 provides a lateral guidance needle on a curved path.  If I load an approach with an arc, the gps will provide updated cdi information to the hsi as you arc and steer right around the arc.  I bet it would work just fine on the final portion of the arcing approach, but I agree it might not be technically legal.

I was thinking that a setup that will continuously self-adjust the course needle on an eHSI, coupled with a WAAS GPS, should be allowed to fly the approach even though it's technically not. Why? Because it would be a helluva lot easier to fly with that setup than it would be with a DME setup even though that's the legal way to do it. 

However, I bet your 430 doesn't do the needle on an arc *inside the FAF*. Garmin is generally pretty good about keeping you legal - For example, on my GTN when loading an ILS approach it gives the warning about GPS being for monitoring only, and automatically switches the CDI to VLOC at the FAF. 

[Ragsf15e]

6 minutes ago, flyingcheesehead said:

I was thinking that a setup that will continuously self-adjust the course needle on an eHSI, coupled with a WAAS GPS, should be allowed to fly the approach even though it's technically not. Why? Because it would be a helluva lot easier to fly with that setup than it would be with a DME setup even though that's the legal way to do it. 

However, I bet your 430 doesn't do the needle on an arc *inside the FAF*. Garmin is generally pretty good about keeping you legal - For example, on my GTN when loading an ILS approach it gives the warning about GPS being for monitoring only, and automatically switches the CDI to VLOC at the FAF. 

On this one, I bet it would keep right on giving good guidance... it does on all the “normal” VOR approaches when you pass the faf.  Before it was legal to fly them using gps on final, you still had to manually switch to VOR/LOC.  Tougher to do that on an ILS with the auto switching.  Either way, it definitely gives the warnings about only using it legally.

We need someone to try it.  Does anyone ever use this VOR approach right next to Baltimore?!

Edited July 10, 2019 by Ragsf15e

[Jesse Saint]

I’m selling the IFD540 right now for $12,500, and it does include an AXP322 ads-b out transponder and gps antenna. The Skytrax 100B is $2,000 added to that. 

If budget is really tight, I have a used 540 newly updated by Avidyne for $9,000 with antenna, but no AXP322. I could throw in a new lynx with he used IFD for $4,000. 

A G5 HSI would also be a winner option, especially since you need an indicator anyway. 

[SkyTrekker]

On 7/10/2019 at 11:01 PM, Jesse Saint said:

I’m selling the IFD540 right now for $12,500, and it does include an AXP322 ads-b out transponder and gps antenna. The Skytrax 100B is $2,000 added to that. 

If budget is really tight, I have a used 540 newly updated by Avidyne for $9,000 with antenna, but no AXP322. I could throw in a new lynx with he used IFD for $4,000. 

A G5 HSI would also be a winner option, especially since you need an indicator anyway. 

Thanks for the offer, Jesse. But the equipment has already been ordered.

I’m curious, though, about what you said about the HSI and indicator. Will my Century NSD-360A not do the job?

 

 

 

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

On 7/10/2019 at 4:02 PM, Ragsf15e said:

On this one, (VOR/DME 15 at KMTN) I bet it would keep right on giving good guidance... 

I am based at KMTN and no, the GTN750 does not give guidance for the DME arc to final approach.  In fact, the approach is not even in the GTN750 database (!)  All of the other published approaches at the airport are supported but not that one. 

I can see the approach plate on my iPad and it is geo-referenced.  I can manually tune the GTN750 to the Baltimore VOR and both the GPS and legacy DME will show the range. The HSI will display the radial. 

The VOR/DME 15 approach can only be flown in manual aka nostalgia mode: It is strictly 20th Century.  

It is an easy approach to fly, but unusual: I center the CDI every few seconds and fly the heading that’s 90 degrees off the radial (the 90 degree point on the right side of the card) while keeping an eye on the DME range to judge corrections to the heading.  

At least that’s how I did it in the last century.   Now the iPad’s depiction makes it Duck Soup.  

If you’re nearby come fly it someday as it is a unique approach.

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

I am based at KMTN and no, the GTN750 does not give guidance for the DME arc to final approach.  In fact, the approach is not even in the GTN750 database (!)  All of the other published approaches at the airport are supported but not that one. 

I can see the approach plate on my iPad and it is geo-referenced.  I can manually tune the GTN750 to the Baltimore VOR and both the GPS and legacy DME will show the range. The HSI will display the radial. 

The VOR/DME 15 approach can only be flown in manual aka nostalgia mode: It is strictly 20th Century.  

It is an easy approach to fly, but unusual: I center the CDI every few seconds and fly the heading that’s 90 degrees off the radial (the 90 degree point on the right side of the card) while keeping an eye on the DME range to judge corrections to the heading.  

At least that’s how I did it in the last century.   Now the iPad’s depiction makes it Duck Soup.  

If you’re nearby come fly it someday as it is a unique approach.

Awesome, thanks! Maybe that’s how garmin kept it legal... didn’t put it in at all.

[Jerry 5TJ]

My own curiosity aroused, I flew the VOR DME 15 approach last night.  Probably for the first time in 25 years....

Turns out to be easy to fly the VOR DME 15 arc approach using the G500, especially with the geo-referenced iPad plate adding to situational awareness.  

I left the autopilot in heading mode and kept the CDI pointer at 90 degree point.  I did use the legacy DME for nostalgia effect. 

The waypoints that define the step down fixes on the approach are all in the database so I entered them manually.  

It seems odd to have the runway lights swivel from askew to alignment on a stabilized approach. 

I also flew the RNAV GPS 15.  Boring but far more precise.  

[hoot777]

Just put remote Garmin 335 in my m20g. Have gtn650. I love it.

[gsxrpilot]

On 7/10/2019 at 10:01 PM, Jesse Saint said:

I’m selling the IFD540 right now for $12,500, and it does include an AXP322 ads-b out transponder and gps antenna. The Skytrax 100B is $2,000 added to that. 

If budget is really tight, I have a used 540 newly updated by Avidyne for $9,000 with antenna, but no AXP322. I could throw in a new lynx with he used IFD for $4,000. 

A G5 HSI would also be a winner option, especially since you need an indicator anyway. 

I'm interested in a finding a great deal on an IFD440. Used, refurbished, etc. The budget is really tight :-)

[MinneMooney]

On 7/10/2019 at 11:01 PM, Jesse Saint said:

I’m selling the IFD540 right now for $12,500, and it does include an AXP322 ads-b out transponder and gps antenna. The Skytrax 100B is $2,000 added to that. 

If budget is really tight, I have a used 540 newly updated by Avidyne for $9,000 with antenna, but no AXP322. I could throw in a new lynx with he used IFD for $4,000. 

A G5 HSI would also be a winner option, especially since you need an indicator anyway. 

Jesse, is this used IFD540 w/new Lynx still available?